Development of John Jones Site
  • Kate Jones
    We are working with a developer called Spiritbond - come along to John Jones between 5-8pm on the 15th to find out more about the plans for the site.

    http://www.johnjones.co.uk/john-jones-news/john-jones-redevelopment-.aspx
  • graeme
    Out of interest, are you taking over the site of the failed development on Morris Place/SGR? (Artist's impression looks like the whole block)
  • Kate Jones
    No unfortunately the neighbouring land owner was already quite far along with his plans and didn't want to join up - I think he is going to wait until our site is done now before he starts again but that may change. The artist's impression shows his development just to give an idea of what the whole lot will look like.
  • hellojo
    Hi - is there a way to comment if we can't make it on Tuesday?
    Can you tell us who Spiritbond are (no website..)

    Thanks
  • Kate Jones
    Yes i've just realised they don't have a website - i will ask them about that and see what we can get online as information on their work. I am sure there will be a way to comment - I'll look into this and update either here or on our website.

    By the way we had an amusing (although scary incident) at John Jones the other evening - a piece of art in our latest exhibition was mistaken for a dead body... have a look at www.theartnewspaper.com for more info.
  • wideboy
    I went to the public exhibition.

    This is a pretty major development being proposed. Ground + 5 floors makes it at least twice as high as any neighbouring building. Student accomodation for approx 450 will likely change the look and feel of local establishments for better or for worse - this is a big hall of residence being proposed. Also there will be fifteen 'affordable housing' flats managed by a "registered social landlord". Commercial space on ground floor on the Stroud Green road side.

    This will certainly change the look of this area.

    Sustainability bit: This boiled down to a bio-mass fulled heating for the student accomodation. Air-sourced heat-pumps for the affordable housing, and green roofs. When quizzed about ground-source heat pumps for the main student accomodation, the counter argument seemed to be that PV (electricity generating solar panels) were not particularly 'proven' in terms of payback, and something about under-floor heating pipes requiring another level of flooring. Couldn't help but think it was simply due to PV + ground source costing more. The commercial units could also benefit from ground-source heat pumps? The student housing has proposed bio-mass heating to keep a general background level of heat, with electric time-limited supplemental heating.

    Planning application likely to be made shortly in Janurary 2010
  • graeme
    Thanks for that info Wideboy.

    Am sure the shops/restaurants in the area won't have a problem with 450 studes moving in, though a big tower would significantly change the look of the place - SG is *almost* villagey. Does it look architecturally interesting? Or just a big block of concrete?

    I wonder if previous failed developments on that block (for clarification, I mean the street block that's already been 'under development' for a year with Vista housing thing) will have an impact on whether permission is granted - residents close to that area must be getting well hacked off with building works restricting access/causing upheavel/mess/disturbance for literally years.
  • dorothy
    It looks huge, on the plan. I read a little about Spiritbond and Kingston Council's plans for student accommodation. It seemed to have been a saga that went on for years. Although this isn't Metropolitan Open Land, so might be easier.

    Is there a University involved with this? Can't find list of the stakeholders involved.

    I wouldn't mind an influx of students. I think it can be great for an area. Camberwell I think is a much better place for all it's art's students, and I quite like Holloway Road because of that studenty vibe too. Stroud Green can be really dead in the daytime. I wonder how some of the traders scrape a living, at least students might help the local daytime economy, as well as evening. To me that building does look big and boring though.
  • wideboy
    Hi,

    >> Am sure the shops/restaurants in the area won't have a problem with 450 studes moving in

    I agree, but talking from a residential viewpoint that is most definitely a mixed issue. After all, businesses are usually primarily focused on making money, otherwise they wouldn't exist right? Not against it, but what I'm to make clear is that local businesses *and* the property developer will have a common business imperative. One arguably short term, one longer term. Residents, on the other hand, have to live with this indefinitely and may not agree.

    >> SG is *almost* villagey

    Yep, and IMHO that's a very important point because slapping a big 6-storey block on that area will at the very least redefine the immediate area very significantly indeed. Next time you walk past the Worlds End pub, consider looking upwards twice as high to find the roof-line of this proposed development If planning is approved as-is, it will potentially pave the way for further neighbouring developments of a similar sort. So, on one hand this is an isolated re-development, on the other hand, this could be the first brick in that wall of creating a 'high street' shopping president, whereby other planning application are compared to this one. Fast-forward 3 years - say, the neighbouring block is bought and submits a planning application thus : "Our 6-storey flats development is in-keeping with the neighbouring John-Jones development". IMHO, this is how planning applications can, and do, roll.

    >> Does it look architecturally interesting?

    To be honest, no.

    >> dorothy : It looks huge, on the plan.

    Yep, and In my view, it *is* huge. The neighbouring buildings will be dwarfed - remember its x2 the height of neighbouring buildings i.e. the Worlds End pub which is ground + 2 floors.

    >> dorothy : To me that building does look big and boring though.

    Me too - why not make this is a genuinely interesting building with good sustainability credentials to boot. I'm in for that. I'm not in for a block of uber-bland commercial/student development on my doorstep with potentially iffy 'developer' motives.

    Your main influence in this will be during "consultation" i.e. the past exhibition, and, more importantly, upon the impeding planning application. This forum appears to be the only public space where the 'public exhibition' was posted?
  • Reg

    Looks to me like this is a pre-application consultation excercise so there are few formal requirements for publicity. They come later.

    I would like to add some concern at the bulk and scale of the building. Not so much on the SGR frontage but certainly on the corner of Lennox Road and Clifton Terrace. I think that the form should respect the domestic scale of the streets at that end.

    @Kate, has the scheme been tested for its effect on daylight/sunlight to the neighbours, and also their Rights to Light?

    @wideboy - "potentially iffy 'developer' motives'? Development is about profit and income. Simples.

  • graeme
    There's a massive empty space on Seven Sisters road, that's just a big pile of rubble. That'd be an ideal spot for a college - or in one of those old office blocks on the Clissold Park side of Green Lanes. Dropping a tower into a residential area seems a bit much.
    ie, put it somewhere neraby that's already got similar buildings. T
  • wideboy
    @reg re: "potentially iffy 'developer' motives'?

    You’re right. I guess I was just trying to point out that developers aren't necessarily driven by what's best for the area.
  • wideboy
    I forgot to add that apparently the height of the planned building was the maximum that the council would potentially allow (not sure exacty what that means), with the very top floor set back on all sides.
  • georgiegirl
    g-unit, that's a good point. It should go on Seven Sisters Road.

    I live right opposite the World's End so reading this fills me with dread. I love the current view from my bedroom window but I can't see myself loving it with a massive ugly building blocking my view :o(
  • dorothy
    I'm assuming John Jones wants to develop the site though, if it's not a student hostel, it'll be something else that has to be economically viable. I think the whole site isn't very attractive at the moment anyway. I agree though five storeys would look bad, from lots of directions, unless it was great design.
  • Kate Jones
    Reg - yes the architect has carried out the required tests for dayight/sunlight to the neighbours, and also their Rights to Light.

    g-unit - this is the first time we have come close to a planning application, I'm not sure which 'previous failed developments' you are referring to - perhaps on the neighbouring site to us? We have bided our time to get it right and not to waste time.

    I must stress that John Jones are staying on site and its important to us that the scheme improves the local area. As well as working here ourselves (as we have done for 20 years), we want to ensure the building is appealing and welcoming to our clients too. Its been really tough to get art collectors from South London to visit us as Finsbury Park has such a bad name for itself...

    We really don't want to create something large and ugly, so we've really taken our time in finding a developer who we believe is empathic to the area and will deliver a scheme that is visually and socially appealing. We've been to visit other schemes that the architect David Gallagher has done and were impressed.

    Like it or not, there are significant other changes afoot in F Park - the CIL site being one of them. The height of our proposed building has been led by the planning approval that was granted to the neighbouring site (six stories) - this half built development is going to go ahead at some point and it has set the benchmark for future developments.

    We also don't want to end up with a building that is empty - as is the case with so many 'commercial' developments. Spiritbond's proposal presents the opportunity to develop a vibrant student community that will integrate with the area and support local business.

    What we have now is hardly benefitting the local area - at night its a large empty car park which is often the site of drug dealing and other salubrious activity. We really want to make things better for everyone. I realise that any change is going to be debated, but I hope that I can reassure local residents that we are not selling out and we genuinely want to benefit the area.
  • Reg

    @Kate, do you have some more images of the building from different perspectives? Unless I am being dim there is only one on your website.

    I am not against large buildings at all and think that the area around the station is suitable for tall buildings but your site is the most sensitive in that it marks the transition from the "busiest station outside of Zone 1" in to a totally domestic area (both in activity and scale). Yes the precedent is set on SGR but this does not mean that this has to carry around the whole block.

    Also, I would be interested to know more about the student use. I know there is another consent at the end of Fonthill Road, and also a big one on Holloway Road. What will the occupation patterns be because from my experience they are only 'vibrant' for about 30 weeks of the year. I assume these would have been 'normal' residential units under different market conditions?

  • wideboy
    @Kate : "We've been to visit other schemes that the architect David Gallagher has done and were impressed." Can you tell us what they are so we can see them too ?

    "..the CIL site being one of them. The height of our proposed building has been led by the planning approval that was granted to the neighbouring site (six stories) ...."

    Confused - what's CIL? Is this the next block along towards the station?
  • markpack
    Kate: like others, I've got a lot of doubts about the size of the building that is proposed. Thanks though for sharing information and responding - particularly given we're not all agreeing with you.
  • andy

    Kate - thanks for starting the discussion.

    From where I stand, the whole area around the station is a bit of a mess and crying out for redevelopment. City North is getting a bloody great big tower anyway:

    http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/city-north-site-finsbury-park-london-by-benson-and-forsyth/5205872.article http://www.bdonline.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=3116455?

    I'm less interested in the look of the building than how it's used.

    I'd like John Jones to be an anchor tenant for a site with a bunch of mixed use artist/creative businesses, somewhere between a Coin St/Oxo Tower vibe and the Chocolate Factory in Wood Green.

    If the student flats could then be allocated to Goldsmiths or CSM, it could be fantastic.

  • andy

    If I'm reading this right, the grey building on the front left with the domed roof is Vista's currently stalled development

    The road on the front left is Wells Terrace and the dark grey one on the far right is opposite the World's End.

    Given the scale of the City North project, this looks more exciting if the tenant mix is right, with the only caveat being that the white residential ones might be a bit high.

  • ArkadyArkady
    Kate, I like the sound and appearance of the development, I think it could be exactly what the area needs.

    However 'salubrious' means healthy - I suspect that you meant unsalubrious. Although perhaps it was Freudian.

    B
  • checkski
    Or even insalubrious, if we're being pedantic!
  • dorothy
    I wonder if Kate meant 'lugubrious'.

    Never find the fact a huge development is going up on our doorsteps, and we'll never get a table in the Jai Krishna again or a drink in the World's End, it's so important to get the grammar right.
  • Ian

    @dorothy. My experience of employing new graduates leads me to think that if 450 students live here and a large proportion join the site we will spend our lives correcting grammar ...

  • dorothy
    If it's not grammar it's bloody speed humps.
  • wideboy
    "A BESPOKE picture framers whose clients include artists Damien Hirst and David Hockney have unveiled plans for a new £30million headquarters - with almost 500 student rooms attached."

    http://www.islingtongazette.co.uk/content/islington/gazette/news/story.aspx?brand=ISLGOnline&category=news&tBrand=northlondon24&tCategory=newsislg&itemid=WeED23%20Dec%202009%2010%3A32%3A52%3A487
  • Cllr Richard Watts
    I'd be willing to be persuaded otherwise, but I'm not sure that lots more student housing would benefit the area. There is los if student housing in the area already, ith plenty more on the way. IN addition, Finsbury Park tends to suffer already from the transient nature of much of the local population and more students housing will, at best, not help this.

    There is a massive local need for more social housing and more 'intermediate' housing to help people get onto the housing ladder. Both of these forms of housing actually really do contribute to creating more sustainable local communities. I hope the developers will considered these options instead.
  • graeme
    Not that I'm massively in favour of the tower block, but I think putting the onus on John Jones and their chosen developers to provide 'intermediate' or social housing is a bit rich.

    FP / SG appears to have many studio/one-bed flats - surely these are first-step/intermediate housing. Planning Dept seem to have allowed too many houses to be converted into flats, so families need to leave the area, doing nothing to help the transient atmosphere. Perhaps stopping conversions/private landlords in FP/SG would be an idea?
  • Ali

    Lots of families leave the area because of poor secondary schools. Witness what happens at SG School. A lot of parents move when their kids get to about 8/9 years old to get into catchment areas of better schools than offered at SG. That must affect the social mix of the area quite a bit leaving the less able to move youngsters and those who tough it out or have their kids travel. This kind of perpetuates the issue as the local secondary schools loose out as well. I don’t recon Haringey is doing much about this at all.

  • taff bach

    Many of the kids from Stroud Green go to Arts and Media, with 81% A-C at GCSE has much benefited from them, my kids went to Highgate Wood and didn't do well.

  • Ali

    I was wondering where the 81% number comes from? Is it 2009 results because when I looked here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/education/08/school_tables/secondary_schools/html/206.stm which is based on 2008 numbers published in Jan 2009 it seemed to be 30% or am I misunderstanding something ? (quite likely). The last Ofsted Report in Jan 2008 seems to give a good report on the teaching approach etc so it would be good to see that filtering through into the kid’s achievements etc. I guess Ofsted must be due back for another inspection soon. Also what happens to kids that want to do A levels or go onto Univesrity?

  • Reg

    Arts and Media at 81%? From memory it came almost near the bottom of LB Islington in the Evening Standard round up this year, and Islington is the worst London borough.

    Just checked BBC website. Confirms 30% pass A-C.

    I agree with Ali. Schools should be the priority round here.

  • leiba1
    Too high and too ugly. Why do all these developers want to dominate an area? They may meet the legal requirements regarding light and neighbours but walking down SGR it's nice to be able to look at a panorama of the sky towards the park and opposite towards Islington. This 6 story building will mean we'll only have a narrow strip of sky to look at. Only the tennants on the upper floors will have a nice view, the rest of us will see only concrete and glass.
  • taff bach

    Arts and Media came second in Islington behind St Aloysius (sp.?) and they have a somewhat uninclusive policy.

  • taff bach

    Most students go on to City and Islington and a number to Woodhouse.

  • Ali

    City and Islington looks like an impressive place wit a very positive web site http://www.candi.ac.uk/

    Even has connections with Corpus Christi, University Challenge here you come !

  • JoeV
    Is there some sort of break for developers who build student housing? They seem to be going up all over the place. There's one planned for Isledon Road and a huge, massively ugly concrete block has opened outside the Tottenham Hale train station.
  • dorothy
    There's also a large one in Stoke Newington, a friend of mine lives close to it. Like Reg she's noticed it's filled with students for 30 weeks of the year and then in the summer it serves as cheap tourist accommodation. Not exactly a Coin St/Chocolate factory vibe.

    I can see the site needs developing, it's been awful for years. However I'm sorry to say that it doesn't actually inspire confidence that John Jones have left it that way for 20 years already. The existing John Jones building is unimaginative to say the least for an arts focussed organisation. There are probably reasons etc, but it's not impressive as a track record.
  • poxy
    Dorothy: That must rank as one of the most asinine posts I've ever read on this forum.

    5 or 6 cheap shots against one undeserving target in a single paragraph. Well done.
  • Reg

    JoeV, not a break exactly but the residential market is in the doldrums, you can't raise finance to build flats at the moment and you're also required to provide affordable housing. When you do the numbers, student accomodation is more profitable and you can sell it to a fund and not have to rely on individuals.

  • dorothy
    @poxy, thanks, I suppose that will teach me to post coming home from the pub on the bus.

    I’ve never liked that orange box not facing the street thing, seemed like a real waste.

    I’ve no doubt that John Jones with their developers have good intentions. From experience I am suspicious about developers, all that stuff about how we care, we’re ethical, we're part of the community is really heart felt, but can all go tits up when it comes to the economic realities.
  • graeme
    Agree with Dorothy, the 8ft high fence around an industrial factory unit was never a nice look.

    And yes, Vista (blue hoarding building site next to JJ) not a good advert for developers. "Oh the market's bottomed out and we need another builder? Let's just leave the place looking like cr@p for the next year until it picks up and we can turn a profit, we live in Hampstead and don't have to walk past it every day".

    I've just realised, Vista are unlikely to be chuffed at the idea that their luxury flats (should they ever happen) will be surrounded by the biggest building site in N4 for the foreseeable. Not a great selling point.
  • David

    Rather dismissive poxy, I think dorothy's point is reasonable.

  • ArkadyArkady
    Are there any pictures of the development proposal online, other than the one on the John Jones site?

    My first reaction is that it looks good, and would radically improve the area. Given how high City North will be this development will represent a mid-point between the surrounding 2-3 story buildings and the centre of FP at City North. Given that it's at the bottom of the hill it shouldn't impact the skyline significantly. And there is a limited amount of space for which high-rise is remotely feasible immediately north of FP, I think fears of 'tower creep' north into SG is probably unfounded. There are plenty of towers that I think should come down (like the one near the junction of Crouch Hill and Mount View) because they are ugly and out of context, but much of the area west and immediately north of the station would benefit from being levelled and redeveloped, and some well-chosen iconic structures would not go amiss.

    B
  • ArkadyArkady
    Also, a neighbouring development has been mentioned here a few times, one that is currently on hold. Is that for the Wells Terrace/Morris Place plot currently occupied by ugly buildings and the car wash? Are there any details of the development online, planning applications, etc?

    B
  • Kate Jones
    Thanks for the comments - some of the more specialist questions I will hand over to our planning consultants to get back on...

    @Dorothy, Yes i agree with you completely, our current site is an eyesore. Nasty red brick around a big concrete car park and a wire security fence. It really doesn't reflect what we do at all. However, one thing I must point out is that whilst we're successful in terms of our reputation in the artworld and the types of client we work for, we are not in a financial position to facelift the current site (the recent article about a £3m Damien Hirst job was not correct! we wish it were). Have you ever been INSIDE John Jones? Its much different on the inside and we want our new building to reflect us on the outside too... We've done the best we can with what we have now, but to really make improvements - and ones that will have longevity (currently 2nd generation family business, which will hopefully get to 3rd generation one day!) - we have to turn to developers to help us.

    I can't repeat enough how important it is for us to develop something of benefit to the local area. We're still in discussions with Islington, Developer, Architects and whilst we have to be realistic (if we don't build up, there isn't a financial incentive for the developers to work with us so nasty red brick building won't be going anywhere...), we will pay attention to the comments made and hopefully achieve at least 99% approval from local residents ;-)

    In the meantime I'll leave you with an art recommendation - we've just framed the show at Whitechapel Gallery Where Three Dreams Cross. Its a survey of photography from Bangladesh, Pakistan and India - works from the past 150 years, many of which have never been seen before. Some amazing stories are told through the images http://www.whitechapelgallery.org/exhibitions/where-three-dreams-cross-150-years-of-photography-from-india-pakistan-and-bangladesh
  • ArkadyArkady
    Thanks for the update Kate. Are you able to give us an idea of timelines, when we should be able to see the planning application, etc?

    Have you heard any further rumours about the progress of the neighbouring development facing Stroud Green Rd? If it's stalled indefinitely then we probably ought to start protesting about the hording.

    Arky
  • bennyfromtheblok
    Hi Kate - I was at the Whitechapel gallery last night for the opening and a Q&A with the curators and some of the photographers. I'd encourage people to go and have a look as most of the work has never been seen outside of India or Bangladesh and is very good....oh, they have great frames too!
  • Richard
    Hi all (another new poster here!)

    @Kate: This suggestion probably comes a little late in the process, but why not throw open the task of designing the new building to an architectural competition. That way you give a chance for young and up-and-coming architects to express new and exciting ideas. This may be less common for smaller developments but it is certainly a tried and tested process and would certainly seem more in keeping with your organisation’s philosophy. In this market you'd probably get responses from some proven, high quality outfits too! You'd be far more likely to end up with an inspiring building as a result.

    I did go to the open day - many thanks for organising this and giving us a chance to comment. I'm sorry to say that I was a little underwhelmed. While I can see that tricky logistical issues are addressed quite effectively by the proposal, and there is some reflection of the local architecture (bricks, tall slim building segments like the terraces), it is not very exciting or imaginative.

    There was a statement in the intro saying that the highest ‘sustainablilty’ standards where being strived for, or something to that effect. I gather that the residential areas are aimed at Code for Sustainable Homes level 4. The requirements for level 4 are a long way short of the highest (level 6). In fact, elements of code 4 are expected to become the legal minimum this year. From the looks of the highly glazed commercial areas, I can’t image these will be high performing either. So, I though the statement was dishonest and there was not much in imagery to suggest a design which responds to the environment effectively enough to be properly low-impact.

    All of the perspective views displayed at the open-day were from above, as if the viewer was floating by on a hot air baloon. I would have appreciated some street level views to give a better sense of scale (the elevations go some way but you’d have to hundreds of meters away to get a similar view). Not only is the proposed building about three times the height of the existing, it also extends much closer to the site perimeter. I am not against taller buildings but the proposed design is quite a lump! There would certainly be less imposing ways of achieve a similar volume of sellable/lettable space. Could some of the internal courtyard space be position on the outside for example?

    With economical conditions as they are you should be is strong position in terms of choosing developer and architect. You’re the boss! If you are going to stick with your current developer and architect then they may need to be pushed a bit harder if you want something a little more imaginative to come out of this process.
  • wideboy
    @Richard Your points about Sustainable homes standards (4 vs 6) are similar to some of my comments about the City North plans.

    I also thought that many of the drawings failed to show the side profile of the John Jones design in relation to the neighbouring buildings.
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