Communists in Stroud Green

edited September 2010 in Local discussion
Did anybody see the Communist Party of Great Britain demonstration outside our beloved new Sainsbury’s on Saturday? Protesting against the cuts, they told me. I haven’t seen that many red flags (2) for years. Warmed the cockles of my heart, it did. I didn’t establish which of the various factions they belonged to, as the party with that name dissolved in 1991, but their literature is distinctly anti-Trotskyite.
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Comments

  • edited 4:14PM
    Yeah, I saw them. I'm sure that the same group used to set up outside Tesco too, 8 or 6 years ago.
  • edited September 2010
    So they stage their public spending cuts protests outside the latest local supermarket? I'm not seeing the strategy.
  • edited 4:14PM
    Tangential, at best. Let's protest about the renewal of Trident by boycotting raspberries. IT"S ALL PART OF THE SAME SYSTEM PEOPLE.
  • edited 4:14PM
    I don't suppose whilst they were outside Sainsbury's they thought to buy themselves any soap did they?
  • edited 4:14PM
    Hi, everyone. I speak -- or, rather, write -- as one of the three Communists who staffed a stall outside the new Sainsbury not long ago. Arkady's wrong: there were three red flags, not two. Missisclack is also mistaken -- we have been outside Tesco as recently as three weeks (not '8 or 6 years') ago.
    The actual name of our organisation is the COMMUNIST PARTY OF GREAT BRITAIN (MARXIST-LENINIST), and details of our work in North London, past and present, is available by e-mailing our Secretary (me as it happens) at northlondon@cpgb-ml.org
  • edited 4:14PM
    P.S. Yes, we are 'distinctly anti-Trotskyite'. We're also opposed to the Labour Party and all those other 'Communist' parties who continue to support it. In other words, we're 'proper' Communists, so let's discuss (in detail and at Stroud Greenians' leisure).
  • edited 4:14PM
    How can you expect everyone to work together in harmony if you can't even agree with other communist parties?
  • edited 4:14PM
    Hmm. I wonder if commissar17 will answer you, Andy? I'll be interested to know what he has to say, on that subject.

    And - small point - I prefer TrotskyIST to Trotskyite. The first is about political theory. The second is merely abusive. A bit like anarchism v anarchy, perhaps.
  • edited 4:14PM
    Andy and Checkski,
    This unity thing is a fair point -- but unity around WHAT? The Communist Party of Britain and the New Communist Party (Britain's two other established CPs) both call for voting Labour, rather than standing their own candidates. We, by contrast, remind people that Labour (despite its trade union links) is every bit as pro-capitalist and pro-imperialist and the Tories or Lib Dems. Which party led us into the Korean War? Which party initiated the military occupation of north-eastern Ireland? And which party failed to repeal all but one of Thatcher's 13 anti-trade union laws while launching a package of public sector cuts that would have put the previous Tory regime to shame? T'was dear old Labour. The position of our organisation, the CPGB-ML, is so different as to preclude any kind of principled unity here. We see elections as a mere tactic to allow public debate in a way that can't happen at other times. Socialism won't come through parliament but through what Karl Marx called "the forcible overthrow of all existing conditions." Meanwhile, however, we DO undertake joint work with other groups who oppose Labour; demand that the trade unions break their link with that party and defy the anti-TU laws; call for victory to the Afghan, Iraqi and Palestinian resistance; and embrace a revolutionary -- rather than reformist -- view of the future.
  • I'm disappointed, Steve: you didn't use the word "vultures" once. X
  • edited 4:14PM
    Ah. So now we know. Actually, I more or less knew what he would say, anyway. Speaking as a reformist, I agree with some of his points, but speaking as a thoroughgoing pacifist, I shall never again agree with any Marxist when he argues for a fighting-with-arms response to injustice. Commissar will say that nothing will ever change without, and he may well be right: I am also a pessimist.

    Andy certainly has a point,though, hasn't he? The tendency of the left, Communist and non-Communist, to split into almost invisible groupuscules has had a calamitous effect in many countries, since WW2. Perhaps the proliferation of IS's, IMG's, SLL's (all Trotskyist - I imagine it's Stalin getting in the way of unity on that front, for Steve) in my youth made little difference to events in the 60's, but the complete disintegration of the Left in a place like Italy has enabled the monstrous Berlusconi to go on and on. Reformistically speaking, anything rather than that, as far as I am concerned.
  • edited 4:14PM
    A pessimistic pacifist. I'm pretty sure that's describing Andy's dog.
  • edited 4:14PM
    "victory to the Afghan, Iraqi and Palestinian resistance"

    Communists siding with neo-mediaevalist fundamentalists always amuses me; less a political position than a supervillain team-up.

    I note with interest from the <a href="http://cpgbml.org/index.php?secName=proletarian&subName=display&art=389">website</a> that the party also supports Cuba (which doesn't even support its own revolution anymore, and is enacting cuts that would give George Osborne a stiffy), Robert Mugabe, and the North Korean regime. Nice friends there.
  • edited 4:14PM
    Between switching Cuba to capitalism, and his full-throated support for the existence of Israel, I'm tempted to get some Fidel T-Shirts printed up...
  • edited 4:14PM
    While I have always had sympathy with the Trots, I don't see how Stalinist groupings like Commissar17's (or indeed the other two that mentioned) can have any moral or ideological authority at all. Commissar17's group is led by Harpal Brar, whose anti-imperialist rhetoric is somewhat undermined by his membership of the Stalin Society who try to rehabilitate Uncle Joe.
  • edited 4:14PM
    Hey, the BNP have had their moment, so you can see how followers of Europe's other great moustachioed twentieth century dickhead might want their turn.
  • edited 4:14PM
    Time to respond to some of the comments Stroud Greeners have made about our Party, I think. So here goes, point by point:
    1. Our support for "neo-mediaevalist fundamentalists." No, we are not Muslims (fundamentalist or otherwise) but, yes, we do recognise that the peoples of Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine are at the cutting edge of the fight against US and British imperialism (and, in the latter case, US-sponsored Israeli apartheid and aggression). Oppressed peoples around the world and the British working class share a common enemy -- imperialism.
    2. Our support for J V Stalin. Guilty as charged, although we call ourselves Marxist-Leninists rather than Stalinists. Stalin was a great Marxist-Leninist and he embodied everything that was best about the groundbreaking task of building a society free of the exploitation of man by man. I don't quite get the bit about our chairman, Harpal Brar, having compromised his anti-imperialist credentials by being linked to the Stalin Society (of which, by the way, I and many other members of our Party are also members). Stalin was the very embodiment of anti-imperialism, in word and deed -- consistently upholding the socialist alternative, inspiring the peoples of the colonies to struggle for their freedom and (perhaps most importantly of all) playing the leading role in the defeat of Nazi German imperialism.
    3. "Europe's other great moustachioed twentieth century dickhead". I thought we were engaging in serious political debate here. All I can say is that, as a compound adjective, 'twentieth century' should be hyphenated -- 'twentieth-century'. ADGS' English is clearly as poor as his approach to political analysis.
  • edited 4:14PM
    Did Stalin kill 12,000,000 people, Steve? 12 would be too many for me.
  • edited 4:14PM
    Serious question - Has communism ever worked succesfully anywhere?

    One more question - Was Orwell, in his description of communism, correct when he insinuated in Animal Farm that under Communist rule, 'All are equal but some are more equal than others'.
  • edited 4:14PM
    Checkski, dear boy,
    If 12,000,000 people really had been killed during the period in question, the current demographics of what used to be the Soviet Union would logically look a lot different from the way they actually shape up. The Soviet archives are now open to inspection, and allegations of this kind can be shown to utter tosh. Incidentally, Michael, did you know that -- per capita -- there are more people in prison in the present-day U$A than were ever held in the Soviet Union?
    I draw your attention to an excellent pamphlet entitled 'Lies Concerning the History of the Soviet Union' (available via the Stalin Society website).
  • edited 4:14PM
    I'm not a political mind but it strikes me that being in any strand of communist party today is rather like myself supporting Arsenal.

    It entertains me, provides a community for me, presents an ideal I like but ultimately has absolutely no chance whatsoever of getting into any position of political power in the UK.

    However, seeing as Arsenal are in the business of entertainment they achieve most their goals. No disrespect intended but it does make me wonder why you'd be in a communist faction. In reality its just a social club that never achieves any of its goals.
  • edited 4:14PM
    N4Matt. Hi!

    Answer to your 'serious' question. Yes, in the USSR among other places. While the capitalist world was suffering the Great Depression, the Soviets had actually eliminated unemployment (by 1936, as I recall). Then, despite losing 27m of its citizens in the epic fight to save us all from Nazi fascism, the Soviet Union rebuilt its society so quickly as to become the second most powerful industrial country a mere 10 years later.
    As to your quote from the (now acknowledged) British intelligence agent George Orwell, "some are more equal than others", that strikes me as being a pretty good description of life in the capitalist 'democracies'. It was a 19th-century satirist by the name of Anatole France who one described the French republic as having the most egalitarian social system in the world. "Here," he said, "the rich and the poor have an equal right to sleep under bridges, steal bread and beg in the streets." Democracy, like many other things, is a question of economics -- and, therefore, of class. In terms of the class struggle, we Communists know which side we're on.
  • edited 4:14PM
    As my sister would put it: "Yay - Capitalism!"
  • edited September 2010
    @Commissar17 -- Do you really know what side you’re on? Because from your previous comment it seems you’d support anyone if they have an anti-US-UK agenda. Does it all come down to the enemy of my enemy is my friend? No matter how suspect? No matter that your ‘friends’ could be and often are more oppressive than your enemy?

    This attitude to me embodies all that is wrong with the left and why people in general don’t trust left-leaning political parties because it does smack of 'All are equal but some are more equal than others'. If you are against oppression it shouldn't matter who the prepetrator is.

    And saying Stalin was a great anything sounds sadly the same as saying Hitler wasn’t all wrong, except for the Jews of course.
  • edited 4:14PM
    There are several options for the format when discussing centuries; really it's just a matter of house style. One of my clients prefers it as eg '18th Century comic opera'; I've never known anyone insist on hyphens before. But trust a Stalinist to come across a situation where variety exists and then insist that only one obscure option is now permitted by the Party.

    And it had never occurred to me that the Left had its own Holocaust deniers.

    As for the fight against imperialism - the least attention paid to the rhetoric of al Qaeda and associated bodies would show that they are themselves thoroughly imperialistic, with ambitions for at the very least a restoration of the Caliphate's original domain, and in many cases dreams of a global islamic state. They, like Stalin, are imperialists too - just ones of another, nastier flavour. Supporting them is simple contrarianism.

    I also notice that you don't even gesture at a defence of your party's position re: North Korea and Mugabe.
  • edited 4:14PM
    Try telling the people of Eastern Europe and Central Asia that the Soviet Union was not imperialist. The Soviet archives are indeed open, and the death and deportation sentances - sometime of whole peoples - are there to be seen, signed by Stalin's own hand. This has been documented to death now. The Holocaust denial comparison is a valid one.
  • edited 4:14PM
    ADGS. I'm happy to talk to you (or, indeed, anyone else) about our position regarding the DPRK and Zimbabwe. In the first case, that of North Korea, we recognize it for what it is -- a socialist country which has eliminated the exploitation of man by man and, in case it escaped anybody's attention, the first country to fight U$ imperialism to a humiliating standstill. Our Vietnamese comrades were, of course, to follow suit a couple of decades later when they kicked the Yankees out of their land. Incidentally, we currently have a Party delegation in the DPRK capital, Pyongyang, and they will be reporting back upon their return. How about listening to some first-hand [with hyphen] accounts of life there, and viewing some videos of their trip? You'd be most welcome at the meeting (honestly).
    Now we move onto Robert Mugabe and ZANU-PF, whose only 'crime' is to have liberated their country by force of arms from settler-colonial and apartheid bondage and to have expropriated the rich, white farmers who continued to dominate some of the agricultural sector, against the expressed wishes of the Zimbabwean masses.
    There's also, I suppose, your view on Islamic 'fundamentalists' which needs to be addressed. First of all, you can't be an imperialist unless you're a capitalist, and the people we're talking about have been stripped of everything (by having been bled dry and, indeed, bombed and shot at by Western governments -- acting on behalf of the monopoly bourgeoisie). Even if some of them wanted to be, these people are not capitalists; they've got no capital. Millions have died in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine but that's never headline news on the BBC. After all, they're not white and they don't speak English, so who cares?
    Secondly, while Communists -- by definition -- are not religious, we don't engage in theological or broader philosophical disputes with people whose homelands have been invaded and occupied. We express solidarity with them in every way we can as they fight back. This is our internationalist duty and, as both you and I have said elsewhere, their enemy is, indeed, our enemy.
  • edited 4:14PM
  • edited 4:14PM
    I've heard plenty of first hand (I prefer it without the hyphen) accounts from North Korea, thank you - though doubtless all ones you'd dismiss as imperialist propaganda or the product of 'false consciousness'. If they've done so much to eliminate the exploitation of man by man, how come the leader lives in palaces while his people starve? If they're such great communists, why do official biographies of said leader promote pseudo-religious myths about his birth being marked by a double rainbow and a new star?

    As for Mugabe, how exactly does having his thugs beating up and terrorising the (poor, black) masses who wish to vote for the opposition (understandable, given Zanu-PF has in fact beggared the country) count as furthering the expression of their wishes?

    "you can't be an imperialist unless you're a capitalist" is a very good way of excusing yourself and your chums from guilt, but it's also nonsense. It doesn't even work as circular logic given the majority of historical empires - the Caliphate the fundamentalists wish to revive included - were pre-capitalist.
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