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Vanilla 1.1.5a is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

1. • CommentAuthorAlex S
   • CommentTimeJun 21st 2008

    
   Hi, new to the site. Anybody seen the winning design for the revamp of FP station? www.bdonline.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=3116455 Blimey. What do people think?
   I can't quite get my head round it but it's pretty ambitious stuff. Can't think of anything to compare it to, except maybe Barking Square. Interested to know what the leisure element will be. 480 apartments!
   
   
2. • CommentAuthorIan
   • CommentTimeJun 21st 2008

    
   Cool...
3. • CommentAuthorPete
   • CommentTimeJun 21st 2008

    
   There is a reason they make these models stark white.
   Imagine, if you will, if it was grey concrete, of breezeblock. Would the design still stand up?
   
   I maintain that circular buildings have no place in modern architecture. Think, whats the reason behind using a cylinder? Why a cylinder? What does a cylinder do so well?
   
   I think I need convincing that cylinders are only there to distract and decoy away and be nothing more than a folly.
   "Look its lovely because its not a bland square!"
   
   I draw you to these sentences:
   “The chaotic geometry of the nearby railway line has effectively distorted the orthogonal nature of the city grid,” Benson said.
   
   Chaotic geometry... Distorted orthogonal...
   Translation: Messy lines mess up the messed up lines
   
   "Practice principal Gordon Benson said the design would be integrated contextually locally and at the citywide level."
   “Our scheme will reinstate an orthogonal geometry at local level, with bold vertical elements to establish its presence in north London and the wider city context.”
   
   What kind of bullshit is this? You cannot integrate locally and citywide. The only way to do that is to design bland, and keep bland, push no envelopes. Its like marketing Smirnoff: you can sell it to anyone because it completely lacks any defining charactertistic. "Bold vertical elements" means it will be tall. Orthogonal means they'll form a triangle to the railway line.
   
   A building to integrate into the whole of London? London has the size, population, ethnicity and identity compared to several countries let alone several cities. A mass appeal to all sensibilities will only provide a context that wishes to not offend anyone. I also point out the "mixed use" language to show that this is a building designed to serve no purpose but all. No soul except functionality. No design expect flexibility.
   
   I've been reading a lot of Marc Auge and Hans Ibelings today. SupermodernStroudGreen
4. • CommentAuthorLiz
   • CommentTimeJun 21st 2008 edited

    

   I'm clearly very dense - I can't work out which way round this goes or its relationship to any other FP landmarks, so find it v hard to comment! Helpful tips greatly appreciated, especially if anyone can work out whether it means the existing City North complex with lovely Yoga Junction in it will be affected...

5. •  
     CommentAuthorMike from London
   • CommentTimeJun 21st 2008

    
   Impressive. A filing cabinet, water butt and two steel shelving units.
6. • CommentAuthorkatiejane
   • CommentTimeJun 21st 2008

    
   It reminds me of Jake and Dinos Chapman's 'Fucking Hell'. Just needs a gazillion skeletons in nazi helmets and pig faces...
7. • CommentAuthorSimonB
   • CommentTimeJun 21st 2008

    
   Jake and Dinos Chapman work next door to me in Shoreditch ... fact of the day :)
8. • CommentAuthorShaunG
   • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2008 edited

    
   @Liz - I think it covers the whole block between Wells Terrace and Fonthill Rd.
   
   
   View Larger Map
   
   Apologies if this attempted map cocks up - I'm not too great at this.
   
   Shaun
   
9. • CommentAuthorLiz
   • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2008

    

   Worked perfectly, and makes much more sense now, thanks ShaunG. It seems very close to the railway line for a major residential development though - the railway line is at the bottom of my garden and down a cutting and it's noisy enough there.

   I'll have to ask at Yoga Junction what they think is going to happen - there are quite a lot of interesting businesses in City North so I think it would be a shame not to rehouse them in the new development, but I guess it's unlikely to be practical given how long it will take to do.

10. • CommentAuthorJoeV
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2008 edited

     
    @Pete I noticed the “The chaotic geometry of the nearby railway line has effectively distorted the orthogonal nature of the city grid" quote and I'm confused as well.
    
    This makes sense if London was a grid city like New York, but it's not. How can the railway line distort the city grid when there is no grid?
11. • CommentAuthorandy
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2008

     

    Can't decide whether this a 'good thing' or a big white elephant. There's nothing to suggest it won't be like every other tube station redevelopment.

    I agree with Pete - showing it all in white doesn't give you any idea what it will be like at all.

12. • CommentAuthorBridget
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2008

     
    Hopefully it will have an M&S.
13. • CommentAuthorkrappyrubsnif
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2008

     
    And an X-It.
14. • CommentAuthortosscat
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2008

     

    Dear Bridget, I do hope you're joking.

15. • CommentAuthordion
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2008

     

    Holloway has a Waitrose! Why can't Finsbury Park have an M&S?

16. • CommentAuthortosscat
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2008

     

    It can if it wants, it's dull though. How about a Netto and a Lidl to start a price war. I think a BK or and MD is likely too.

17. • CommentAuthorkatiejane
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2008

     
    My wish list: Wagamama; M&S Simply Food (for raspberry royales and percy pigs); Monmouth coffee; a new Curzon cinema; a Rose bakery; Space NK; a knitting shop; Foyles; a branch of the Tate; decent florist; a swiss chocolatier...
18. • CommentAuthorBridget
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2008

     
    No Im not joking, it would be nice to have somewhere within walking distance to get nice bread and food and not have to go to Crouch End.
    
    Apparently where Lidel is there was going to be a Tesco but the locals fought against it and a Lidel went there instead which they are gutted about. I was told this by someone who complained about the impending Tesco!
    
    I also hope that they have loads of chain shops too which will be a breath of fresh air around here. A Yo Sushi, a Space NK a WH Smith or Borders.
    
    We can but dream.
19. • CommentAuthorkatiejane
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2008

     
    ...and a Whole Foods. Yummm!
20. • CommentAuthorkatiejane
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2008 edited

     
    @ Bridget - that's two votes for Space NK! Bring it on!
    
    However - I have to disagree with you on one point - M&S has never, ever done nice bread.
21. • CommentAuthorBridget
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2008

     
    You cant beat Dunns for a good loaf!
22. • CommentAuthorBridget
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2008

     
    Yes a Whole Foods!
    
    How long is the FS revamp going to take 5 years? Will make sure I wont move until then. Ive been telling everyone we are getting an M&S - you should see their faces light up!
23. • CommentAuthorandy
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2008 edited

     

    A Whole Foods!? This is what there will be:

    A McDonalds, a Ladbrokes, a Cash Converters, a Costa Coffee and a Peacocks.

    It's a tube station precinct - think Archway, not San Francisco.

24. • CommentAuthorBridget
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2008

     
    Ha ha ha ha ha!
    
    You have shattered my dreams.
25. • CommentAuthorandy
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2008

     

    you seem to have taken it well.

    tread softly and all that.

26. • CommentAuthorandy
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2008

     

    @katiejane - with that list, you should probably live in Borough. Coin Street or somewhere like that. Ticks every box I think.

27. • CommentAuthorkatiejane
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2008

     
    @ andy - wash your mouth out! South of the River? I think not! Pah!
    
    I do love a good Peacocks, me. How about a Subway too - they seem to be proliferating into some quality sites - lovely!
28. • CommentAuthorBridget
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2008

     
    oooh give me a Star burger
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    An AMT would be nice...
29. • CommentAuthorLiz
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2008

     

    People, a Wholefoods? Have you been in the one in Kensington High Street? It's astronomically expensive. Last time I went (more as a spectator sport than anything else), I happened to have been to a health food shop in Kew Gardens earlier in the day and still had my shopping with me. I compared the prices on identical products and Wholefoods was about a third more expensive, and the shop I originally bought the stuff in was pretty pricey in the first place. Now, I'm no fan of Tesco and cheap food which penalises producer/farmers, but Wholefoods is on a whole other level. And they must have to throw away shed loads of food which doesn't get sold, which also makes me a bit sad.

    If there's a cinema and space for Yoga Junction, that would be nice.

30. • CommentAuthorPete
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2008

     
    Reading this thread, its like SG.org has all the potential to become a localised think tank.
    
    Even if it is preferences for what kind of bakery.
31. • CommentAuthortosscat
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2008

     

    The think tank seems a bit girly to me - will the cinema show nothing but SATC?

    @ Bridget - with comments like "I also hope that they have loads of chain shops too which will be a breath of fresh air around here" you are gonna get yourself killed

32. • CommentAuthorAli
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2008

     
    Any one notice in page 3 of the Observer Business News it announced that Finsbury Park is to get Travel Lodge – must be part of Centre North
33. • CommentAuthorColette
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2008

     
    A cinema would be excellent, but I'm with Liz on the Whole Foods idea. If we're going to have posh food shops, I'd vote for a Waitrose.
34. • CommentAuthorPoxy
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2008

     
    ShaunG's map extends too far to the west with a frontage onto Fonthill Road. I'm glad to see the City North proposals won't be affecting the numerous outlets of garish wedding dresses of Fonthill Road.
35. • CommentAuthorBridget
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2008

     
    I think the Travel Lodge was going to be on Fonthill Road, there was something in the Islington Gazette about it last year.
    
    3* , my heart sank.
    
    Very funny about the garish wedding dresses.
36. • CommentAuthorPoxy
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2008

     
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2008/jun/22/hotels
    
    http://www.travelodge.co.uk/press_releases/press_release.php?id=313
37. • CommentAuthordominic
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2008 edited

     
    Waitrose have chosen Angel, apparently
    
    By the way, is Alex S a stooge for the architects? Free public consultation?
38. • CommentAuthorkatiejane
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2008 edited

     
    Their Pieminister pies were two for a fiver when I went. You don't get offers like that in Melbury and Appleton.
39. • CommentAuthorandy
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2008

     

    Good thinking Dom.

    If I had to guess, after a bit of a google, I'd say he was Alex Smith of Building Magazine, who often writes about Islington developments: http://www.building.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=3093046 http://www.building.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=3076777

    May be looking to write a lazy story on the development that finishes with "Local residents made their views known on the Internet. "I want a Whole Foods and Starburger" said one, whilst another questioned the use of the word "orthoganal" dismissing the phrase as "bullshit". After that, they started wittering about Pieminsters and local entertainment complex X-It

    Care to log back in and deny this Alex?

40. • CommentAuthorBridget
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2008

     
    How sad about Woolworths, I used to go there a lot when I lived there. I have been reading about their problems and they have just sacked their chairman. They dont own any of their sites, they are all rented. Im not sure how much longer they can survive, boo hooooo.
    
    Why does N1 get all the good supermarkets while we get shitty Tescos.
    
    Come on share em out!
41. • CommentAuthorIan
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2008

     
    As far as I am concerned Woolworths is a department store. I have always thought that and a Greggs should be the modern designation of city status.
42. •  
      CommentAuthorMike from London
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2008

     
    @Bridget: >>>>>Why does N1 get all the good supermarkets while we get shitty Tescos.
    
    Because Waitrose and Marks and Spencer do their market research and there are not enough people with enough money around Stroud Green Road to justify opening one. Go figure!
43. • CommentAuthorkatiejane
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2008 edited

     
    But they've got one at Nags Head! That's more downmarket than SGR.
    
    @ andy - have you ever had a Pieminister pie?
    
    Why is everyone down on Tescos? Actually, don't answer that.
44. •  
      CommentAuthorMike from London
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2008

     
    All the shops at Nags Head are at a highly visible main road junction with lots of passing traffic, bus routes and that. Probably the big stores like Waitrose and Boots being together boosts trade, not the other way round. Accident of history. And there are loads of million quid houses just down the road in Tufnell Park and Kentish Town. I would guess it's all a numbers game. Stroud Green Road on the other hand is a little island of........(apply your own description).
    
    I agree it would be great to have a Waitrose and M&S in Seven Sisters Road but where's the parking? All you see is people going to Lidl and heaving carrier bags full of cheap sugar for miles up the pavement.
    
    I use Tesco, but I don't like the name, dislike the stripey corporate branding and hate the colour blue. Any more reasons?
45. • CommentAuthorandy
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2008

     

    I did have a Pieminster pie at the cricket. It was very good.

46. • CommentAuthorColette
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2008

     
    @ Katiejane - I know you said don't answer that, but I need a rant. The staff in there are cretinous in the extreme. I lose the will to live in that shop more often than anywhere else on earth, including my office.
    Take today - certain vegetables (all next to each other) have big fat yellow "any 3 for 2" stickers on them. So I pick up 3 different packs of different veggies. Of course the offer doesn't scan through at the check out so I argue with the cashier, who claims that they have to be the same vegetable. I try to explain to her the implication of the word "any" in the offer, eventually give up and leave before I end up hurling my shopping all over her till. I can really see why people lose it in there on a regular basis though. Even the manager is an idiot.
47. • CommentAuthorIan
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2008 edited

     
    @Colette - the clientèle aren't any cleverer though - none of them seem to be able to count up to ten items ...
48. • CommentAuthorColette
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2008

     
    @Ian - very true, and that's why I opted not to stand in the 3 items or "less" customer services queue to shout some more.
49. • CommentAuthorFour Eyes
    • CommentTimeJun 25th 2008 edited

     
    As useless as the staff at Tesco's are, their incompetance can sometimes have it's advantages....Tesco's Kentish Town this lunch time, 'Finest' (in the very loose sense of the word) Paella, reduced from £3.99 to 14p (it should have been the Scotch Egg next to it). Bargain, and it still had 3 days before the sell buy date. Cheapest lunch ever :)
50. • CommentAuthorAli
    • CommentTimeJun 25th 2008

     
    Don’t quite understand why everyone complains about Tesco’s so much, at least it is there and you don’t have to go to it if you don’t want to.
    
    It is an easy target but at least it has a decent selection of what most people living round here want, it can be walked past, to, etc no need to jump in car to get your shopping.
    
    Don’t like it that much then put it out of business by going either to Woody’s, Londis or even the new Cost Cutter !
    
    It also employs a lot of local people, provides a cheap source of food for lots of not very rich local people, has some stuff the richer amongst us might want and did at least bring a much needed free cash machine !
    
    Remember Every little helps !
51. •  
      CommentAuthorMike from London
    • CommentTimeJun 25th 2008

     
    There are in fact two free cash machines in SGR. Little known fact that.
52. • CommentAuthorPoxy
    • CommentTimeJun 25th 2008

     
    Go on, I'll bite. I know of three cash machines but only one of which (Tescos) is free, the other two (one in DIY shop next to Cats and one in Woody's) both charge upwards of £1.75 per withdrawal. Where's the second free one?
    
    Ooh, just remembered a fourth machine... in the 'phone booth outside Jai.
53. • CommentAuthorBridget
    • CommentTimeJun 25th 2008

     
    I think the Post Office has a free one.
54. • CommentAuthorEmma
    • CommentTimeJun 25th 2008

     
    Cor, I just posted to say about the one in the Post Office (only useful if the place is open obv) but I think I must have posted at EXACTLY the same time as Bridget as my comment didn't appear! Spook!
55. • CommentAuthortosscat
    • CommentTimeJun 25th 2008

     

    The Fullback does cashback, even on credit cards, if you're ever desperate.

56. •  
      CommentAuthorMike from London
    • CommentTimeJun 25th 2008

     
    Correct, the PO. I always feel smug when I see a long queue outside Tescos's after using it. Obviously only when it's open, natch.
57. • CommentAuthorColette
    • CommentTimeJun 25th 2008

     
    @Ali - I just don't understand why it can't be properly managed. At least the basics. Staff understand the not exactly complex offers. Staff can count to 3 (items or fewer). It's not hard. And what's with the days when you walk in there and it's like everyone else on SGR knows there is a nuclear holocaust on the way, and at least 50% of the shelves have been stripped of all foodstuffs?
58. • CommentAuthorrainbow_carnage
    • CommentTimeJun 25th 2008

     
    I'm not opposed to Tesco in general, but the one on SGR sucks. It's all ready-meals. Half of the time they don't have any of the vegetables that I need. You know, uber exotic things like peppers and courgettes. The staff are rude and incompetent. The trolley man yelled at us the last time we accidentally pushed the trolley over the sacred white line.
    
    We get weekly deliveries from Tesco. It's much easier, and the selection is better online.
59. • CommentAuthorAli
    • CommentTimeJun 25th 2008

     
    I guess that is their “Just not in time system” working for you.
    
    It is way better than it used to be not that many years ago. ie closing at 5.29 on the dot every day of the week, not open on a Sunday, a lot smaller although they did have a bigger on site store room so less stock out but a smaller range to choose from than now !
    
    Quiet a few of the staff have worked there for a long time and are very helpful but I guess the issue is all the part timers etc that they have.
    
    I also suspect that the local management doesn’t have much say on really happens on stock out etc as that will be driven logistic supply systems, warehouses and delivery etc.
    
    I am surprised that someone like Sainsbury’s hasn’t bought out Woody’s and turned it into a Local store but I guess that will be because it would find it difficult to compete in price and offer !
60. • CommentAuthortosscat
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2008

     

    

61. •  
      CommentAuthorMike from London
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2008

     
    Did you get permission to take this photograph? Were you not challenged as a possible terrorist?
62. • CommentAuthortosscat
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2008

     

    Uhuh.

63. • CommentAuthordion
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2008

     

    @ Ali - I am surprised Tesco haven't bought Woody's and turned it into another Tesco!

64. • CommentAuthorkatiejane
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2008

     
    They're stocking up the Costcutter I notice.
65. • CommentAuthorEmma
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2008

     
    I like the Tescos, it v convenient for meat - I would never buy meat from the butchers on SGR as they all smell of bleach. Agree that the veg is ming; even when they have stock it's all unripe and unnecessarily prepackaged, but that's the excellent thing about SGR - there are loads of places to get nice fresh fruit and veg.
    
    I don't have a problem with the staff, I like having a chat with the regulars. It's a pig of a job they have to do, they get treated like extensions of the till, and I'm not surprised they're disninterested, if that's all they get back from it.
    
    Having said that if I was shopping for a family rather than on my rather ad hoc basis, I would do it online as well.
66. • CommentAuthortosscat
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2008

     

    If we tip them better, maybe we'd get a better quality of staff in Tesco.

    I'm with Emma, have a chat to them, make them smile and maybe they'll do it for you.

67. • CommentAuthorAli
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2008

     
    If you want a good butchers go and see Tony up at Meat Master Butchers on Crouch Hill just up a bit from the Larrick.
    
    Their main business is supplying restaurants etc but they also do a butchers shop as well. It is good for standard things, its bacon is good and the eggs are large anda lot lot cheaper and better than Tesco. Unfortunately they don’t do their own sausages an the like but on the whole a lot better than the Halla places on SGR.
    
    There is also a great one on Green Lanes called I think Baldwins. Does game as well a lots of other great products. It is the sort of old fashioned butchers you used to get in small town High Street but adapted for the locals in Green Lanes. If you want fresh duck , pheasant, pigeons, quail etc that is the place to go
68. • CommentAuthorkatiejane
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2008

     
    There's a good one in CE, near the show shop by 'O' Thai, where they do veggie sausages
69. • CommentAuthorJoeV
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2008

     
    The butcher up in CE near O’s is called Freeman’s and has very good sausages of all varieties. Baldwin’s on Green Lanes is comparable and very handy because my favourite fruit, veg, and bakery combo, Yaser Halim is nearby .
    
    
    Not sure why Tesco provokes such outrage, though admittedly there’s room for improvement at the SGR location in how they order and stock the shelves (if only they would stop rearranging the location of items and get some unsalted butter in).
    
    It’s definitely improved since I moved to the area a few years ago At least now it's possible to get a loaf of bread and some milk after 6 o’clock. They used to be out of stock regularly when I stopped by after work.
70. • CommentAuthorAli
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2008

     
    Yaser Halim have the best Apple pies on earth ! (excuding the bramble and Apple pies I make). Olive Bread is also very good
71. •  
      CommentAuthorMike from London
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2008

     
    I vote for Tony at Meat Masters. A good local butcher. He and his dad (have I got it the right way round?) are really nice guys, they'll have a laugh with anybody, they know all the gossip, it's worth zipping in just to find out who's got the bailiffs in, who's won the pools, who's up, who's down.
    
    The quality of their meat is good enough and nowhere near the price that Freemans will sting you for much the same thing. (Though of course Freemans is organic and probably the quality is a grade or two 'superior'.) They will also carve you a really nice joint of pork, roll it and string it and then tell you how to cook it - recommended!
72. • CommentAuthordion
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2008

     

    @ JoeV - they do French unsalted President butter

73. • CommentAuthortosscat
    • CommentTimeJun 28th 2008

     

    @ JV - all supermarkets rearrange things regularly to shake up your routine and get you spending more, you'll never change that

74. • CommentAuthorJoeV
    • CommentTimeJun 29th 2008

     
    @geoff - Thanks for the tip. President is the only brand they carry unsalted. Why they don't offer Tesco's brands or others unsalted baffles me.
    
    @tosscat - All supermarkets do, on what seems like a daily basis? Seems like SG Tesco does it far more often than other supermarkets I've been in including other Tescos. I know why they toy with me I just wish they would stop it.
75. • CommentAuthorkatiejane
    • CommentTimeJun 29th 2008 edited

     
    @ JoeV - what a coincidence - they've just started stocking their own. I bought some on Friday. It's in a similar packet as the salted, only it's blue, not red.
76. • CommentAuthorAli
    • CommentTimeJun 30th 2008

     
    Every little helps !
    
    Their Computer must have noticed a run President hence puts ion their own brand as it have a higher margin.
    
    Clever stuff !
77. • CommentAuthorAlex S
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2008

     
    Yep, Andy Jun 23. You're right. I write for Building and (mis)manage the web site. Def not a stooge for the architect - just a local who gets a bit excited about a bit of modern design. Sorry for not checking back for such a long time. Must find more about the scheme. It's backed by the same guy behind the library on Blackstock Road. He owns lot's of land round FP. Can't remember his name.
78. • CommentAuthorandy
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2008

     

    Hello Alex. Interesting on the owner. Definitely interested to hear if you find anything out.

    (and randomly enough, I have been looking at the Building website recently and was thinking how good it was. Much better than Contract Journal ;) ).

79. • CommentAuthorAlex S
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2008

     
    Thanking you. Looks a bit shabby today. Are you in building/architecture?
    
    Anyway the guy is Jack Morris, now OBE, and his family own the shopfitter CIL based behind the Tube - company is now known as Business Design Centre Group (yes they own that as well). The Morris family - him and four bros - have also set up a Trust, Morris Charitable Trust, which Jack chairs. He's also the governer of the City & Islington College and responsible for its expanstion. He's also chair of the Anna Frank Trust. Born in Stokie - looks like the family made their money and decided to stick around rather than heading for the Bahamas.
    
    He's an accountant - probably explains why nobody's heard of him. Certainly deserves a wikipedia entry. This is the best I could find http://snipurl.com/3nczf