Karmenz - have Haringey Council lost the plot?

Colette

Just received a very alarming flyer through the letter box from the Council alerting us to an "application for a variation to a premise license" from Karmenz. They're applying for the following: Live Music Sun-Wed 1100-0000 Thur-Sat 1100-0200 Recorded Music Sun-Wed 1100-0000 Thu 1100-0200 Fri-Sat 1100-0400 Bank holidays/Christmas Eve until 0300 and New years Eve for 24hrs. The provision of late night refreshment: Sun-Wed 1100-0000 Thur 1100-0300 Fri - Sat 1100-0400 Bank holidays/Christmas Eve until 0300 and NYE for 24hrs. Supply of alcohol for on the premises only: Sun-Wed 1100-0000 Thur 1100-0300 Fri-Sat 1100-0330 Opening hours Sun-Wed 1100-0000 Thur 1100-0230 Fri-Sat 1100-0400 So as far as I can see, Karmenz is applying to turn itself into a late-night club. A 4am licence? are they mad? Bearing in mind that it backs onto a highly residential area (and not to mention the fact that people actually live above Karmenz), is there any chance at all of this actually going through? Councillor Watts, do you know anything about this, and do you know if Haringey are obliged to put all applications up for consultation, or does the fact that we're getting this letter suggest that Haringey is taking this proposal seriously? We last had serious problems with Karmenz over a year ago, with really loud music (including seriously low-quality MCing at max volume until 4 in the morning, which would wake us up). We complained a few times to the Council and after several months of this, it stopped and we have heard nothing probably for about a year, so I guess they were doing it illegally and got told off. The main problem is that they have an outdoor terrace at the back that they use, which means that all the noise booms over the gardens that back onto Albert rd and Stapleton Hall Rd... Anyway, I'm off to compose a very stroppy letter to the Council now, but thought I should make others aware.

Ewan

I logged in to start this thread Colette and was beaten to it.

Karmenez take the LIVING FUCKING PISS anyway.

I'm so angry.

I stay up until the early hours most weekends and make my fair share of noise. I live on stapleton hall road and the issue is that the music comes out the back of that place up the gardens of albert road and stapleton hall road.

I've been kept up on SO MANY sundays by those people. It doesn't even seem to be that open to the public with mostly private parties.

I'm getting in touch with the council on Monday.

This is unacceptable.

It is a restaurant that has been making noise illegally for many years and now they want a 4am noise licence. LIVE MUSIC UNTIL 2am!

I will set myself on fire outside the council before this is allowed to happen.

I'm really angry.

sorry

Ewan

Hi collette. loving your work :)

Ewan

I've calmed down a bit. Sorry for my language

Colette

Ewan - I'm right there with you, and the calm tone of my email is a poor representation of the dance of rage that I did in my living room when I read this. Two human fireballs will have more impact than one. Anyone else?

Chapter none

I received the same letter this morning. What's the place like I've never been in there, I have drunkenly swaggered past.

To be fair we live on the SGR side of Albert road and I've never heard the music from that place once (admittedly I'm not often in on a Friday or Saturday but have been know to stay in occasionally).

Colette

@Chapter none - how long have you lived there? There's been no noise now for about a year, probably. I think they were opening late night illegally, and were made to stop because of complaints. Which I guess explains why they're applying for a licence, but not why the Council are considering it as a viable option. The noise used to be *seriously* bad. You probably wouldn't notice it if your bedroom doesn't back onto the gardens though.

Chapter none

@Colette, We moved in last spring. I had the top back room until September however I am a heavy sleeper so may not have been distracted. Luckily I'm at the front now so I'll just leave the letter on the fridge for the people at the back of the house to feel worried about.

Colette

Err, right, thanks chapter none... don't come crying on this board when you can't sleep at night though.

Colette

Just to update anyone who might be interested (I guess that's just you, Ewan...), we got some very prompt replies from the Council about this. They said that Karmenz hadn't put up notices in its window and around (a point I'd made in my objections), as it was supposed to, so the application has been put back to May 1st. They also said that any objections already made would be taken into account, and that they would inform us of the date when the hearing would take place, so we could raise any objections in person too. Less efficiently, I emailed our local PCSO team, who pledge on their website to respond to any emails withing 24hrs. I'm still waiting to hear back from them a week later.

Giles

I've objected as well - my kids' bedroom will get the brunt of the noise. 4am is absolutely ridiculous for this area.

Blackaddersgirl

This is ridiculous! I know more people who want to object formally to this. The place should be shut anyway - they don't even look like they abide to the basic H&S rules such as fire safety (amount of people in there at a time), nor do they check for ID's that I've noticed as I go past groups of what look to be fifteen year old girls gamely piling in. Will write to the council after just now reading this, but keep us posted please......

andy

<http://tinyurl.com/pps8dl>; This looks like bad news for those worried about the Karmenz noise: *The venue can now stay open until 2am on Fridays and Saturdays - not until 4am as originally asked for - and until midnight on all other days except 10pm on Sundays.* *It can sell alcohol until 1.30am Fridays and Saturdays, 9.30pm on Sundays and 11.30pm Mondays to Thursdays.*

matt

Colette told me that only 3 or 4 people turned up at the licence hearing. I'll leave it to her to say more...

Colette

Yep, 5 people turned up in total to object (two pairs and one partially deaf guy). It was quite an interesting process really, albeit a bit long. The council did impose all sorts of restrictions in terms of the acoustics - sound monitors, anti-vibrations thingies, no open doors/windows out back etc etc. You are not supposed to be able to hear *anything* from outside the boundaries of the premises, so if it's waking you up at night, complain complain complain to the noise team. The one thing that became pretty clear at the meeting is that if you don't complain to the noise team, they're far less likely to take your objections seriously.

Steddy

Hi, just come across this place while looking for Karmenz address to send off a complaint. Wish I'd found it sooner. We didn't get any of those notices about their license despite living opposite it.

So, Karmenz is back, with gusto, judging by last night's performance. They went on till 5am then took another half hour to get their noisy clientele out. I live in the flat above Woody's so can see what's going on. I guess it's a bit late, but is there anything to be done?

Keep on complaining, of course

Steddy

Hi! thanks for the reply, nice to hear from you.

They're at it again. I've complained for the second night in a row, along with the neighbours. The nice man has come round to hear the noise from our flat, he's gone to speak to them, and now he's gone it's LOUDER.

It's ok, though, they're closing at 4am today. How considerate

phantom_user

I know it shouldn't come to this, but has anyone tried approaching the owner directly to make a complaint? It's probably much harder to dismiss a complaint that is put to you in person (or as a personal letter) than something passed on second- or third-hand by the council. I can remember there was a similar dispute over noise levels at a pub on Kentish Town Road (the Oxford Arms or the Abbey Tavern I think) and one of the points the owner had made to Camden Council was that he didn't believe there really was an issue because no-one had ever complained to him in person. Also, Steddy as you live on the other side of SGR maybe it's worth contacting Islington's noise team? I guess the fact that you're not in Haringey is why you didn't get a letter, though that's obviously a bit stupid...

Colette

Unbelievable. Their licence means they have to close at 2 on a Saturday. The owner is clueless, or evil, I'm not sure which. I couldn't hear them last night, but then I was so knackered I probably slept through it. Heard them on Friday though. By the way, Steddy, they are supposed to have all their windows closed (the owner moronically claimed they weren't windows, but doors - at which point the lawyer in the hearing had to intervene...).

Steddy

Amazing. Well, their 'doors' are currently open, blasting music out for all to hear on Stroud Green Road. Not content with ruining my sleep, they're coming for my waking hours too.

I ended up sleeping on the sofa in a back room last night. As the night carried on more people were making more noise outside. I've been trying to work for a deadline for today all weekend. Don't we have any say in these temporary licenses?

I might give Islington council a try. Twice the fun eh? I can't see them giving a shit about the noise they make, would personal communication with them would be particularly fruitful? The idea that no noise can be hear from outside the premises is a complete fantasy.

matt

I think personal communication is worth a go. and keep complaining to the noise team, as colette says.

Colette

You may also want to complain to Haringey's licensing officer... Daliah Barrett. I think her details are also on the council website, under the licensing section.

unaesthetic

you should set up some industrial-strength speakers and blast them with frequencies just above and below the range of human hearing, as loud as possible.

infrasound at sufficient intensity produces feelings of unease, nausea, and disorientation; there's a pretty compelling theory that infrasound is responsible for the majority of unexplained hauntings. ultrasound produces feelings of irritability and a strong desire to be elsewhere. and if there are any dogs present it will drive them mental.

the benefit is that you won't actually be able to "hear" it so it won't add to the noise level, and because the arseholes in karmenz won't be able to "hear" it, it'll be hard to accuse you of anything. but it will make the karmenz experience an uncomfortable one.

bennyfromtheblok

Hit back with a WAS3000....

bennyfromtheblok

Sorry, link didn't work...but you can get the idea!

Steddy

Just spoken with Harringey licensing. They're well aware of the problems this weekend and have sent them a caution or something. So it sounds like there's a little progress being made, if nothing else.

I guess we'll see what happens next weekend eh?

Colette

Good work Steddy. I'm quite impressed with just how stupid the owner must be. She's well aware that the Council already know she has previous in terms of breaking the terms of her licensing hours - anyone with half a brain would surely try and keep things legal for at least a few months after having been granted a shiny new licence??

katiejane

@ Collette - 'their' not they're licence.

I can only put this (very uncharacteristic) blip down to the fact that you are under duress.

Back in the day...(Busby will back me up on this) if a licensed premises stayed open beyond its licence, the police were usually interested...

Colette

Cheers Katyjane - duly corrected.

katiejane

sacre bleu mademoiselle!

wisteria53

now that's an idea - blast them with a bit of French classical music Lully or Debussy!