World War One memorial

checkski

Your post makes me feel slightly ill, ADGS. It is precisely that sort of hero-ising of war, the concept of 'turning the other cheek', for example, that led to WW1 in the first place. Discussion about WW2 is more difficult, but bravado should NOT be the guiding principle in any war.

andy

I always thought the Armistice message of "Never Again" / "Jamais plus" was reasonably pacifist in its construction... And @yagamuffin, I'm assuming that's a joke.

Detritus

Surely there is a difference between hero-ising of ww1 and making a hero of the men who fought and died in it? This isn't about what we think of the war but how we think of the men who took part, they deserve our upmost respect.

checkski

Your choice of language, and thus your take on war, not to mention the military background of your family,Detritus, could lead to a war of words between us. MY background was pacifism all the way - Quaker schooling, father a CO in WW2, headteacher ditto, in WW1. But we have one thing in common, I think: a sense of pity and horror, re the millions and millions of ordinary people who copped it in war. Perhaps we should leave it there. Were those really pacifist slogans, Andy? If the Great Powers had really had a peaceful agenda after WW1 they would never have foisted the grossly unfair Versailles Treaty on the losers. It led to the rise of fascism, and ultimately to WW2. There werent many genuine peace-lovers around after 1918, as far as I am aware - I mean, of course amongst the leaders - although President Wilson was an interesting character,and perhaps it was a pity he didnt have more influence.

ADGS

The problem with Versailles was that it wasn't upheld. If France and Britain had put their foot down at the remilitarisation of the Rhineland, German officers had sealed orders to retreat. When they came back home with their tails between their legs, the Nazi boasts about making Germany strong again would have looked damn foolish. Probable result: Hitler falls, millions of lives are saved. Instead, 'never again' feebleness was precisely what ensured we did get it all again, only worse.

checkski

'put their foot down'... 'with their tails between their legs'... 'would have looked damned foolish'... It's all there in your choice of language. You have a gung-ho approach to history, where war is a fascinating game. You are plainly no pacifist, ADGS.

Arsenalred7

Dear All my first comment was to encourage support both verbally & financial and it was never meant to start a discussion about the rights & wrongs of war . We all have our OWN opinions and these should be respected , but we must respect the opinions of those people who erected this memorial all those years ago

HelenM

You have support - we haven't achieved consensus yet! I walked past Trinity Green today and it occurred to me that people might not be familiar with the site and this could have caused some of the problems. The 'memorial' part of the war memorial is actually there - a cross at the top was blown away in the 80s. When I suggested putting peace at the heart of new work on the site I saw in my mind's eye the memorial combined with a new element, but appreciate that this might have been understood. <div><br></div><div>And of course people might not know that the site is now already a peace garden, with planting around the memorial as part of the scheme and with the blessing of Holy Trinity which owns the land.</div><div><br></div><div>One of the speakers at the opening of the Peace Garden had been a young woman in a house on Granville Road which was destroyed by a bomb. This was a woman who had lived through war and in terms of respecting her views, well, she spoke of peace.</div><div><br></div><div>There is an example of combining an old memorial with new views in the remembrance garden of St Mellitus Church if people want to see how respect can be combined with a call for peace.</div>

ADGS

No, I'm not, because as I have indicated, pacifism results in the victory of evil. Asking Hitler nicely if he'd please stop would have been an act of colossal cowardice and an invitation to further atrocities. Fighting him ended the problem - albeit at terrible cost, which would have been much lowered if action had taken sooner. War is not a game, it's Hell. But it's often the lesser of two evils, and when it's inevitable, acting sooner is generally better than later. Appeasement just gave Britain dirty hands and allowed the Nazis to strengthen their position. 

Detritus

Personally I think CO were extremely brave men to stand up for what you believe in takes guts. WW1 is different to most other wars as it could have been avoided if people in high office had just tried, much like the Falklands war pointless and if our vaunted intelligence service had been doing their job right utterly avoidable. There is no glory in war, it turned my father into something that wasn't nice I don't blame him but rather what he did and saw. But he along with millions of other men fought and many died, yes you can blame the state but should never blame the men. You can look back to the peninsula war the men were the dregs of society commanded by mostly inept officers who got their by cash or friends in high places. But they still fought and died. I am under no illusion as to the abject horror of armed conflict, but I can separate the men and the war. The men should be never forgotten never called murderers they did what they were told. I have the utmost respect for them.

conformable_kate

Memorials are always for the living, aren't they, not the dead. Those who die in war - and perhaps especially those who died in the first world war - don't always have much choice about whether they are heroes or not, and might have preferred not to be; the survivors are often very critical of the way that memorials swerve towards celebration. So when we as the living decide to commemorate this particular war, we do need to think about what and why we are remembering. <div><br></div><div>Also: how long ago do wars have to have happened to be allowed to drop into forgetfulness? Is it always a bad thing to forget? Should we be setting up memorials to those who died in the Crimean, the Napoleonic, the Dutch, the Civil Wars? There are plenty of wars Britain has fought which don't really deserve respect - and yet people on both sides suffered and died for them. </div>

Mirandola

If you're interested in war memorials, there's one with a terrific back story in St Saviour's. Am planning/hoping to do something worthwhile with RowanArts as part of the 100th anniversary of the First World War.

miss annie

I'm not sure that we need to erect new memorials, Britain has invaded all but 22 countries, and had at least a military skirmish with most of them, most of that is best with a veil firmly drawn over. This conversation started with a question about whether we should restore, not change, existing ones. I think we should. My nan would regularly get a bit fired up about Agincourt, so I guess there's no rule about how long we remember for. As when people die they are remembered for as long as someone talks about them.

Detritus

The war may not deserve respect but the men who fought and died do. As I said before this memorial was built by people who would have had a direct link to the men on it, we have no right to change the design, just fix what is damaged.

HelenM

There are many examples of people with a direct link to war - and their views on the subject of war memorials are as varied as ours… <div>e.g. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/8124932/Last-British-veteran-of-WW1-refuses-to-mark-Remembrance-Day.html<div><br></div></div>;

kreuzkav

Lovely poignant article Helen.  Many people died in the big wars from not only Britain but Ireland, Australia, Germany and so many other countries. They were mostly working class.  While I agree a country has to defend itself and not let evil regimes take over countries I think the war machine is out of control.  I think a lot of remembrance spectacles serve to bolster war mongering rather than remember the dead.  I remember the people who have died belonging to me, and that includes my great grandfather who died in WW1.  I don't need to wear a poppy or a attend or take part in a government sanctioned robotic ceremony to do so.  The people who died were individuals not just statistics to be turned into propaganda for the defense industry. They deserve more respect than that. They died young and many left widows and children behind.

j

A restoration should be exactly that - returning something to its original condition.<br><br>If instead people want a new, politically correct, bland monument somehow designed to eliminate all risk of offence to anybody for any reason whatsoever, that's a different matter entirely.<br><br>

Cllr Richard Wilson

This is a great idea.  On a slightly more practical note this website has lots of information about restoring war memorials, fundraising and a small grant scheme to help with restoration:<div><a href="http://www.warmemorials.org/small-grants-scheme/">http://www.warmemorials.org/small-grants-scheme/</a></div>;

yagamuffin

Conversation has moved on a bit but @Andy, no that wasn't a joke but I'm guessing I have shown my ignorance of the situation....

vetski

Thanks. @Cllr Wilson - that's very interesting and useful.<div><br></div><div>Anyone know why it wasn't repaired/restored after the '87 hurricane? Or is it the sort of thing not covered by insurance?</div>