@ tosscat - I always tip bar staff, but not necessarily pub staff. Having worked behind several world-class bars, as well as in a pub, I can tell you that there is a huge difference in the level of service. Working in a pub is like driving a car. Working in a good cocktail bar is like flying a jet. An experience bartender can tell you the origin of every spirit behind the bar and give you an explanation as to why certain thing work together. They can recommend a bottle of wine from a list of 300. I've seen pub staff who couldn't even open the bottle.
I tend to draw the line at whether or not the job could be done by a vending machine. A vending machine can open a bottle of Budvar for me, but it couldn't make me a whiskey sour how I like it. The latter deserves a tip.
Tips (and service charge) that go through payroll are taxed the same as any other form of payment. Cash tips are considered voluntary gifts. It's up to the recipient to declare them.
I tip cab drivers, unless I think they've purposely taken the scenic route. I've never had a problem with black cabs, but in other countries it's a real issue. In Bangkok, I had a cab driver turn what should have been a 10-minute ride into three-quarters of an hour. We had been staying in the area for a couple of days, and I had the map in front of me as we drove. Eventually I had to yell at him to stop the car and walked the last 100 yards. Otherwise I might still be in that cab now. I paid him the exact amount on the meter, not a penny more. He probably would've got more money had he taken me there directly, as Westerner guilt makes me way too generous in developing countries.
This is changing the topic slightly from the original discussion of Morgan M, but what do you do when you're in a cab in a strange city and the guy is taking the scenic route? Off the top of my head, I recall this happening in Prague, Budapest and, um, Buffalo. You know the guy is just driving in circles, but you're in a strange city in the middle of the night. You can't just get out in the middle of nowhere.
In Budapest, we drove through several industrial estates on the way to the airport in a cab that was ordered by the hotel. The journey took twice as long as on the way into the city and cost 3 times as much. I wrote a complaint to the hotel, who couldn't care less.
I'd love to find some sort of a solution to this problem. It's not so much about the money as the principle of it. When you have a flight to catch, you can't stand there arguing with someone who doesn't speak English. You just have to pay. And they know it. I thought that ordering a cab through the hotel was the solution, but obviously not.
Just been to Morgan M for big family birthday meal - fantastic as before, and Morgan was in this evening. Two things I would add to Collette's very comprehensive summary: if you are a fish-but-not-meat eater (like me), they'll let you swap dishes between the meaty and veggie five course menu which is very accommodating of them; and I think it's probably more modern French than modern British.
@RC: though I agree with your tipping philosophy in general, I’m curious, how can a tip be both a gift and payment for a service received? Doesn’t it have to be one or the other?
I try to tip in cash whenever possible because as you say, it’s not always the case that the waitstaff receives the money when the service charge is included in the bill or added when paying by credit card
But I definitely don’t do as a favour to the server so s/he can avoid paying income taxes on money. There are plenty of low-paid workers out there who don’t have the option of being paid in cash. Yes, it’s up to the person to declare the income and my hope is that they’re not only a hardworking person but an honest person as well and do.
@RC re: ripoff taxis abroad. Maybe you could try underpaying (once you've exited the cab and have all your belongings)? The language barrier could then work in your favour as well, I suppose.
We have underpaid minicab drivers in this country who have taken us the long way round, which is easier to argue because obviously we can speak the language and know the area, and of course it's easier to dispute the cost with minicab drivers as they don't have a meter.
@JoeV - The 'gift' aspect of the tip is from the government's point of view. It means that it was given voluntarily. It's a tax loophole for employers. If it's not given voluntarily (e.i. it doesn't say 'optional' on the bill), then the employer has to take VAT out of it. No VAT is payable on gifts, but tax is.
Again, I have to stress that this is the way the system has worked for years. It doesn't matter that other types of low-paid workers don't have the option of getting paid in cash. It's all part of complex formal and informal salary negotiations. An experienced waiter will not work for the minimum wage. And why should he? Believe me, the skills required to do the work far exceed most minimum wage jobs. Cash tips are taken into account by both employers and employees. If waiters did not get cash tips, they would demand higher salaries. Your meal would cost more. Or, alternatively, you would be served people who are willing to work for £5.52/hr, but then you can't complain about the level of service.
I'm curious, but who on this board actually knows how much waiters make? Obviously it varies from restaurant to restaurant, but by putting them in the same category with other 'low-paid' workers, it makes me think that people have no idea.
I can tell you that when I used to work behind the bar, I made significantly more money than I ever have using my masters degree.
@RC? are you kidding? Working behind a bar I made an absolute pittance, although it was a fun job; Minimum wage and no tips - that's a low-paid job by any definition. I made a little more as a waitress (because of tips), but I would hardly have classified myself as comfortably off.
@Colette - The next time you're in a decent restaurant, chat up some of the staff. You'd be surprised by how many of them have masters degrees in things like sociology. There's a reason why they work in the industry. Getting a 'real' job often equals a 30% pay cut. That's definitely what it was for me.
Obviously there are lots of servers and bar staff who earn very little. Their skills are usually limited to writing down your order and putting your plate on the table. <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7335351.stm">A restaurant in Germany</a> has a 'robot' doing that job.
@tosscat - You seem to be under the impression that, as a Yank, I'm used to a different tipping culture. I've lived in London for almost 8 years and have never worked in the food industry in the States.
@ RC - I'm just mighty confused.
You tell me that the people who need tips do so because they are not paid the minimum wage.
You imply that you don't tip where a vending machine or robot could do the job.
You tell me that as a skilled waiter (i.e. one who deserves a tip) can earn a small fortune.
I glean from this that your seemingly initially fluffy argument is more a capitalist gripe rather than a moral issue.
You have almost inspired me to tip less in the future, in the hope that people will put their expensive educations to better use.
tosscat - i think the point is that one should tip well for good service.
waiters/bartenders who are genuinely skilled and provide good service (obsequious or not) deserve to make a good living, not least because they are doing something that few other people can do. in my experience of the service industry, two waiters can work the same shift, and the better one can leave with 10x what the other made.
if people did put their education to "better" use, every waiter and bartender in the world would be an ignorant 17-year old who can just about cope with breathing and taking your order at the same time. you *want* clever people in the service industry. for most it's only a stop-gap to pay tuition fees, student loans etc, until the day comes to avail ourselves of our edumacation and get a "real" job. but waiting tables or tending bar, and doing it well, is a difficult job, and deserves compensation.
(by the way, rainbow_carnage was making her money as a cocktail bartender in certain members' clubs. highly skilled work in an exclusive environment, not pulling pints of lager in a wetherspoons.)
@RC. I have a degree in politics and I can assure you that I earn more now than I did as a waitress, so much more in fact that I no longer have to live with my mum in order to be able to live in London. And no, I don't work for a bank, or a big city law firm. And yes, my degree is relevant to my job. I also like to think that I was a perfectly competent waitress back in the day too. I'm pretty sure you're talking nonsense. There maybe good money to be had working for Gordon Ramsay and the like - in fact I don't doubt it - but those working in Michelin starred restaurants are only a small proportion of the country's waiting staff.
@Katiejane, yes, memememe, I hate them too. If I had to pick one though it would be Polly Vernon.
I find the term 'mixologist' a tad pretentious. And I'm fairly pretentious myself, so that says a lot.
And yes, Alex James is a twat. Since when is he a food critic? I don't know anything about Polly Vernon, but I dislike her already. I googled her name and the first thing that came up was an article entitled 'Admit it. You hate me because I'm thin'. That pretty much says it all.
Comments
I tend to draw the line at whether or not the job could be done by a vending machine. A vending machine can open a bottle of Budvar for me, but it couldn't make me a whiskey sour how I like it. The latter deserves a tip.
Tips (and service charge) that go through payroll are taxed the same as any other form of payment. Cash tips are considered voluntary gifts. It's up to the recipient to declare them.
I tip cab drivers, unless I think they've purposely taken the scenic route. I've never had a problem with black cabs, but in other countries it's a real issue. In Bangkok, I had a cab driver turn what should have been a 10-minute ride into three-quarters of an hour. We had been staying in the area for a couple of days, and I had the map in front of me as we drove. Eventually I had to yell at him to stop the car and walked the last 100 yards. Otherwise I might still be in that cab now. I paid him the exact amount on the meter, not a penny more. He probably would've got more money had he taken me there directly, as Westerner guilt makes me way too generous in developing countries.
This is changing the topic slightly from the original discussion of Morgan M, but what do you do when you're in a cab in a strange city and the guy is taking the scenic route? Off the top of my head, I recall this happening in Prague, Budapest and, um, Buffalo. You know the guy is just driving in circles, but you're in a strange city in the middle of the night. You can't just get out in the middle of nowhere.
In Budapest, we drove through several industrial estates on the way to the airport in a cab that was ordered by the hotel. The journey took twice as long as on the way into the city and cost 3 times as much. I wrote a complaint to the hotel, who couldn't care less.
I'd love to find some sort of a solution to this problem. It's not so much about the money as the principle of it. When you have a flight to catch, you can't stand there arguing with someone who doesn't speak English. You just have to pay. And they know it. I thought that ordering a cab through the hotel was the solution, but obviously not.
Any ideas?
I try to tip in cash whenever possible because as you say, it’s not always the case that the waitstaff receives the money when the service charge is included in the bill or added when paying by credit card
But I definitely don’t do as a favour to the server so s/he can avoid paying income taxes on money. There are plenty of low-paid workers out there who don’t have the option of being paid in cash. Yes, it’s up to the person to declare the income and my hope is that they’re not only a hardworking person but an honest person as well and do.
We have underpaid minicab drivers in this country who have taken us the long way round, which is easier to argue because obviously we can speak the language and know the area, and of course it's easier to dispute the cost with minicab drivers as they don't have a meter.
Again, I have to stress that this is the way the system has worked for years. It doesn't matter that other types of low-paid workers don't have the option of getting paid in cash. It's all part of complex formal and informal salary negotiations. An experienced waiter will not work for the minimum wage. And why should he? Believe me, the skills required to do the work far exceed most minimum wage jobs. Cash tips are taken into account by both employers and employees. If waiters did not get cash tips, they would demand higher salaries. Your meal would cost more. Or, alternatively, you would be served people who are willing to work for £5.52/hr, but then you can't complain about the level of service.
I'm curious, but who on this board actually knows how much waiters make? Obviously it varies from restaurant to restaurant, but by putting them in the same category with other 'low-paid' workers, it makes me think that people have no idea.
I can tell you that when I used to work behind the bar, I made significantly more money than I ever have using my masters degree.
Obviously there are lots of servers and bar staff who earn very little. Their skills are usually limited to writing down your order and putting your plate on the table. <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7335351.stm">A restaurant in Germany</a> has a 'robot' doing that job.
@tosscat - You seem to be under the impression that, as a Yank, I'm used to a different tipping culture. I've lived in London for almost 8 years and have never worked in the food industry in the States.
waiters/bartenders who are genuinely skilled and provide good service (obsequious or not) deserve to make a good living, not least because they are doing something that few other people can do. in my experience of the service industry, two waiters can work the same shift, and the better one can leave with 10x what the other made.
if people did put their education to "better" use, every waiter and bartender in the world would be an ignorant 17-year old who can just about cope with breathing and taking your order at the same time. you *want* clever people in the service industry. for most it's only a stop-gap to pay tuition fees, student loans etc, until the day comes to avail ourselves of our edumacation and get a "real" job. but waiting tables or tending bar, and doing it well, is a difficult job, and deserves compensation.
(by the way, rainbow_carnage was making her money as a cocktail bartender in certain members' clubs. highly skilled work in an exclusive environment, not pulling pints of lager in a wetherspoons.)
Sorry - totally off the point, and wholly uncalled for I know.
There maybe good money to be had working for Gordon Ramsay and the like - in fact I don't doubt it - but those working in Michelin starred restaurants are only a small proportion of the country's waiting staff.
@Katiejane, yes, memememe, I hate them too. If I had to pick one though it would be Polly Vernon.
And yes, Alex James is a twat. Since when is he a food critic? I don't know anything about Polly Vernon, but I dislike her already. I googled her name and the first thing that came up was an article entitled 'Admit it. You hate me because I'm thin'. That pretty much says it all.