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1. • CommentAuthorSimonB
   • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2007

    
   Hi guys - new to the site although I've been lurking around for a while.
   
   Where does Stroud Green begin and end? Are there a set of agreed borders or is it a bit blurry?
2. • CommentAuthorDavid
   • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2007

    
   We are Ninja

   Harringey or Islington? should help!

3. • CommentAuthorandy
   • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2007

    
   We are Ninja

   Hi Simon. The line is very blurry. I think it's a ward in Haringey, but it's also (increasingly) used as 'anywhere near stroud green road'.

4. • CommentAuthorPete
   • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2007

    
   My criteria is much more simple
   "It's where my brother lives"
5. • CommentAuthorLiz
   • CommentTimeJan 4th 2007

    

   It's a hot topic. My strand on asking cabbies is also related to this (but it's so long since I've posted that I've forgotten how to do a link thingy).

   It's almost better defined by where it isn't. It is definitely not:

   Anywhere East of FP station Anywhere south of Hornsey Road Anywhere from Crouch Hill station west (though this is contentious...) Not sure where the northern border is - maybe the railway line?

6. • CommentAuthorDavid
   • CommentTimeJan 4th 2007 edited

    
   We are Ninja

   i'm gonna shade/mark the area on the directory map. I'll start with the above, using the railway line as the northen border, once on, we can tweak it until all are happy. Then we'll know for sure.

   It's like a modern day version of drawing dragons.

7. • CommentAuthorSimonB
   • CommentTimeJan 5th 2007

    
   Might I suggest Mount View Road as the northern boarder? I'm not biased or anything but if we say Crouch Hill Station then I'm out of bounds! ... but only just ;)
8. • CommentAuthorDavid
   • CommentTimeJan 5th 2007 edited

    
   We are Ninja

   I've never actually taken note of the Wards of Haringey before.

   Here's the Haringey Wards:

   Hard to tell but it heads up like towards Green Lane? Or does Ward data simply not apply for this?

9. • CommentAuthorDavid
   • CommentTimeJan 5th 2007

    
   We are Ninja

   ok, first stab at a basic rectangle on the directory. I've zoomed it out one, just for a better whole view. if we can agree on the four outer corners, we can add points going in and out as we go making up a stroudgreen polygon. I love polygons.

10. • CommentAuthorLiz
    • CommentTimeJan 6th 2007

     

    If these are Harringey wards, then there's one immediate problem...the southern boundary is SGR itself, because everything south of there (i.e. where me, Lucy and Andy live) is in Islington. It also means there is no such area as Crouch Hill (which I'm pretty sure exists - you don't just go straight from Stroud Green to Crouch End). Hmmm.

    David, I think I am being really dense but I can't see the rectangle...

11. • CommentAuthorDavid
    • CommentTimeJan 6th 2007 edited

     
    We are Ninja

    Ah yes, it wasn't working on Explorer, fixed now.

12. • CommentAuthorPete
    • CommentTimeJan 6th 2007

     
    I now do not understand. The ward picture is surely a different shape to the directory.
13. • CommentAuthorDavid
    • CommentTimeJan 6th 2007 edited

     
    We are Ninja

    Well the Ward, Pete, is the literal area of Stroud Green according to the Council. If we were strictly sticking to that then nothing on the West side of Stroud Green Road would be considered Stroud Green, which is a bit silly, not to mention discounting Arch Forum Lord Andy from living in the area. Also the Ward looks to stretch up to Green Lanes and I don't think anyone would consider that "stroud green" as in the local area. Its more about the community around the main high street.

    That's why were trying to define it outselves and Liz asks Taxi drivers wierd questions.

14. • CommentAuthorLiz
    • CommentTimeJan 6th 2007

     

    I still can't see the rectangle...is it a mac thing?

15. • CommentAuthorLucy
    • CommentTimeJan 6th 2007

     

    I'm with whatever puts me in Stroud Green!

16. • CommentAuthorDavid
    • CommentTimeJan 7th 2007

     
    We are Ninja

    what browser on the mac Liz, i'll take a look? also refresh a few times, you might be looking at a cached version

17. • CommentAuthorLiz
    • CommentTimeJan 7th 2007

     

    Top tip on the refreshing front - I can see it now. How did you do it? On second thoughts, perhaps I should just stick with amazed wonderment at your computer skills.

    I wonder about the south east tip - seems to go a bit too close to Holloway? But then Hornsey Road and Seven Sisters road seem like natural boundaries...

18. • CommentAuthorFour Eyes
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2007

     
    I missed this discussion but agree with the new shading on the map. My only suggestion would be that the border should probably follow the railway tracks and not spill over a little into the park or Harringay?
    
    As we're on the Holloway subject (^^^Liz^^^), I was perusing the Foxtons magazine that came through the door a couple of days ago and noticed they have an interesting area call 'Hillmarton' which is where Holloway is supposed to be...
19. • CommentAuthorLiz
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2007

     

    That'll be the Hillmarton conservation area then. Nice.

20. • CommentAuthorDavid
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2007

     
    We are Ninja

    These things pass. Anyone remember Holborn being called "mid-town" two years or so back while they were selling loads of new office space?

21. • CommentAuthorDavid
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2007

     
    We are Ninja

    ok so the east border is the railway line, and the west border is a bit too Hornsey? Shall i run the west border from the bottom up along Durham - Turle - Almington - Ormond - Highcroft so parallel to Hornsey but a bit closer to the SGR?

22. • CommentAuthorandy
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2007

     
    We are Ninja

    Ithink so. From Durham feels right. Claiming the junction of Hornsey + Seven Sisters as SGR feels like we are pushing the definition of stroudgreensraum a little too far

23. • CommentAuthorDavid
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2007

     
    We are Ninja

    OK, so the East/West borders have been revised. How do we feel about the area now people?

24. • CommentAuthorandy
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2007

     
    We are Ninja
    Yep. Can't really argue with that.
25. • CommentAuthorLiz
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2007

     

    I like it. Entertainingly, my road is the one you cut off halfway down (Turle Road) which means that I am in SG but the people three houses down aren't. I guess that's the nature of borders.

    Also, the Midtown thing is still hanging about - that's what they're calling the new big shiny building on and over the Holborn one way system.

    When we see a non-jokey reference to Archway as 'Highgate slopes' we'll know that estate agents have really jumped the shark.

26. • CommentAuthorFour Eyes
    • CommentTimeJan 10th 2007

     
    I was previously in agreement with having Hornsey Road as the west border but on reflection I notice in the A-Z that Hornsey Road is split between N19 (Upper Holloway) and N7 (Holloway proper). I think SG should remain N4 with a little bit of N19 thrown in. N7 definitely not SG.
27. • CommentAuthorFour Eyes
    • CommentTimeJan 10th 2007

     
    Sorry forget my last comment. The directory wasn't working as google maps seemed to be down. If I'd taken the trouble to read above I could have seen you'd already done this.
28. • CommentAuthorSimonB
    • CommentTimeJan 10th 2007

     
    'Highgate Slopes' ... I love it!
29. • CommentAuthorpoxy
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2007 edited

     
    Is there any chance of re-instating the border?
    
    <fears the exclusionary fall of the axe>
    
30. • CommentAuthorColette
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2007

     
    I can't see the border either... sigh. Although am feeling entirely confident that Albert rd lies within it. My new N4 bag arrived today, and very nice it is too, but how about a new bag/tshirt with the map/border on it?
31. • CommentAuthormatt
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2007

     

    I'm all for border polygon reinstatement, too!

32. • CommentAuthorColette
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2007

     
    This article is playing having havoc with the previously defined boundaries, although I suspect shoddy journalism. There is no way that the corner of Albert rd and Victoria rd is Muswell Hill...
    http://www.hornseyjournal.co.uk/content/haringey/hornseyjournal/news/story.aspx?brand=HCEJOnline&category=news&tBrand=northlondon24&tCategory=newshcej&itemid=WeED18%20Jul%202007%2016%3A02%3A56%3A143
33. • CommentAuthorpoxy
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2007 edited

     
    There's more than one Albert Road. There's more than one Victoria Road. And, believe it or not, there's more than one junction between roads called Albert and Victoria.
    
    Muswell Hill
    
    That's not to say that the journalist is referring to the correct junction, natch.
34. • CommentAuthorColette
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2007

     
    Ah.
    Looks sheepish.
    Mind you, that Albert rd is N22, so is that Muswell Hill, or is it really Alexandra Park, or even Wood Green....
    Skulks back into a dark corner.
35. • CommentAuthorDavid
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2007

     
    We are Ninja

    Borders re-established.

36. • CommentAuthorpoxy
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2007

     
    David, I don't see the border. I'm using IE6, btw.
37. • CommentAuthorDavid
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2007

     
    We are Ninja

    Works on my IE6. Refresh your page a few times. Explorer is a bit crap with translucent images, IE7 & Firefox will display it without issue though.

38. • CommentAuthordion
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2007

     
    http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=51.570401,-0.107889&spn=0.026674,0.079823&z=14&om=1&msid=103839198395126013788.000436a5bc242a68120e4
    
    how about that then? or should it go further up crouch hill?
39. • CommentAuthorLiz
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2007

     

    Very generous on the extension down as far as Hornsey Road, I'd say... And I live down there.

40. • CommentAuthorJemsey
    • CommentTimeAug 5th 2007

     
    My sense is that with London areas, some borders tend to be hard (definable / no argument); others are soft (not defined / different people have different views) and are best defined as being within a given range. With the eastern border, I'm certainly wth Liz. For my money that's way out. I'd say the soft border for the east was between SG Road and only as far east as somewhere like Evershot Street.
41. • CommentAuthordion
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2007

     
    Okay, how about the border being 3/4 minutes walk away from Woody's - we all know Woody's is clearly the centre of Stroud Green.
42. • CommentAuthoryagamuffin
    • CommentTimeNov 19th 2009

     
    The answer is simple. The borders are:
    
    Upper Tollington Park
    Stroud Green Road/Crouch Hill
    The Broadway/Topsfield Parade/Tottenham Lane
    The railway line
    
    Everything outside of this is Finsbury Park or Upper Holloway or Crouch End or Harringay.
    
    It's basically the bit up on the hill with the precious reservoir.
    
    I don't understand why people include areas to the west of SGR as Stroud Green. Like most roads it is named after the place it leads to, not the place it runs through.
43. • CommentAuthortwinspark
    • CommentTimeNov 26th 2009

     
    Northerrn border is where Oakfield Rd meets Mountview Road which runs west to Crouch Hill.
    
    Eastern perimeter is where Tollington Park bends to meet Oakfield Rd., before railway and park gates.
    
    Southern perimeter is where SGR and Seven Sisters meet inc. a sliver of SGR down to station and back uo to Worlds End then East around SG school and through to Tollington Park.
    
    Western perimeter is SGR itself then Crouch Hill up to Mountview Rd.
    
    Basially NOT Finsbury Park, Not Hornsey Vale, Not the ladder.
44. • CommentAuthorIan
    • CommentTimeNov 26th 2009

     

    Not sure why I am engaging in this but ...I disagree - the principle I would apply would be based on "travel to" area - those people that live near and shop, drink and eat on SGR and its environs (i.e. the Noble) are in 'Stroud Green'.

    Why count what is east of the road and not what is west? Makes no sense. Even if you have a rule that you only count where the road leads to the road doesn't discriminate as to whether people turn left or right off it as you seem to want to.

45. • CommentAuthorPapa L
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2009

     

    I've always thought the where is Stroud Green thing a pretty nebulous concept and Ian's definition works better than most.

    Look at the oldest map available here.

    http://www.stroudgreen.org/discussion/1318/old-maps/

    Stroud Green existed long before the surrounding area as it is now and was a tiny place that appeared to centre on what is now the Old Dairy / Larrik crossroads.

    In the 18th century/19th century Stroud Green appears to sit across Stroud Green Road - look at the electoral map or the modern day A to Z and it's shifted up to an area around Stapleton Hall Road etc that was just fields back then.

    So I reckon stick a compass point in the Old Dairy crossroads, draw a circle to where you see fit and that's Stroud Green.

46. • CommentAuthorAli
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2009

     

    I wonder if the dates on the maps are when they are published or when they surveyed. It seems that houses in Lorne and Marquis etc are not on the 1872 map when I know that was when these where completed

47. • CommentAuthortwinspark
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2009

     
    @Papa L.
    
    '..centre on what is now the Old Dairy / Larrik crossroads....'
    
    That's right all of Stapleton Hall, Ferme Park, Weston Park and Hornesy Vale was pasture in early through to mid 1860's.
    The Larrik would have been Stapleton Hall Tavern with rooms and a livery . The Dairy was actually functioning as exactly that, cattle were driven and rested there, a toll paid to graze etc. and then their milk sold to the dairy following morning before continuing on to market at Smithfield. The toll gate was run by Stapleton Hall on SHR and which still stands as the oldest building in Haringey - next to the W3 bus stop and formerly the Hornsey tory club in Hugh Rossi's day with 5 fantastic conker trees in the car park, the scoundrels sold up in mid-80's and converted into flats, chopped the tree and added the wings to the building you see now.
48. • CommentAuthorAli
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2009

     

    THe wide street outside the side Larrick was where teh Horse Carriages used to turn and pick up passengers to go into London

49. • CommentAuthorleiba1
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2009

     
    So where is poor Scarborough Rd then? In no mans land?
50. • CommentAuthortosscat
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2009

     

    @ Twinspark - you sound like an older version of Busby!

    Anyway it's not 'the Old Dairy / Larrik crossroads', it's the far more succinct 'Fiveways'.

51. • CommentAuthortwinspark
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2009 edited

     
    @tosscat - Didn't know Busby's age had been established? Thought the grief his postings got had driven him underground - not seen that thread since beginning of week.
    
    Info is from an attic find of old photo's, household bills etc. from first occupants of house. I remember Stapleton Hall Tavern and the Tory club with it's prefab snooker room and the Dairy before it was a pub had hardware shopon the corner with a car bodyshop behind it with in & out gateways and cobbled yard.
    
    Enjoy the idea that SG was established as a place before Crouch End and FP though - and west of SGR is most definitely not SG! -except the Park Tavern which we will claim via a corridor.
52. • CommentAuthorPapa L
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2009

     

    Twinspark. Great info and that sounds like it was a good find in the attic.

    However, stretching the southern border down to Seven Sisters Road and heading off east into those fields and pastures, while not allowing anything west of Stroud Green Road (not even going the one road west to pull in the brilliant Park Tavern or Regina Road) seems odd.

    Is there a dark reason behind your anti-western sentiment?

53. • CommentAuthorArkady
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2009 edited

     
    Between SGR and Hornsey Road is Tollington, surely? I know the name has largely fallen put of use (like Hornsey Vale, hence some of the confusion over SG's northern boundary above), but it has a Tollington Community Centre, and a very old pedigree too, just Like Stroud and Hornsey...
54. • CommentAuthortwinspark
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2009

     
    @Papa L
    love the Park Tavern and as I told tosscat, we would claim that through a short corridor on Tolly Park to Charteris rd. as for the rest the reason it's not Stroud Green is because it's not Stroud Green - might br FP or Tollington but not SG.
55. • CommentAuthorIan
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2009 edited

     

    @twinspark - on such exhausting "just cos" reasons the whole of humanity has been steeped in conflict. Here's a thought - self definition...

56. • CommentAuthordion
    • CommentTimeDec 5th 2009

     

    try www.upperholloway.org

57. • CommentAuthorkrappyrubsnif
    • CommentTimeDec 5th 2009

     
    @twinspark, if your find includes original material I think Hornsey Historical Society would be interested, you really ought to show it to them.
    
    I've read whatever I could get my hands on about 'old Stroud Green' over the years and there were a few things new to me here. Where did you learn about there being a toll gate on Stapleton Hall Road? Too small, surely? And the bit about the buses turning outside the Larrik (which makes sense, the hill over to Crouch End was probably too steep)? The roadway outside the Larrik is still cobbled.
    
    I have a local history book somewhere that includes a watercolour of an old farmhouse at Fiveways, around 1800, which I think must have stood at the bottom of the hill occupying the same space outside the Larrik / STapleton Hall Tavern where the engine shop is now....there was probably a village green there.
    
    There is also a remarkable little metal badge dated about 1760 which is kept at the V&A somewhere, which is inscribed 'Mayor and Corporation of Stroud Green'. Apparently about that time it was the habit of certain bibulous City gents to get the coach up from Holborn to the Stapeleton Hall Tavern (then a country pub) at weekends for meetings of a drinking club. That's what they called themselves - Maypr and Corporation of Stroud green. That was before the present pub was built and the Stapeleton Hall Tavern was actually in the old Stapleton Hall mansion (still there). I think we should resurrect this club!
    
    When I can be arsed I'll scan the pictures and post them here.
    
    I asked the V&A about the badge once but they said they didn't know what I was talking about. They may have lost it. It needs an acquisition number. Someone will have to go down there with a picture.
58. • CommentAuthorbluejack
    • CommentTimeDec 5th 2009

     
    Here's the thing: 'stroud green' as used in this forum is a term signifying a vague concept of place built on the shared, but individual experiences of the members. It's a group idea with fuzzy boundaries.
    
    So to define it, the best way may be for each member to centre a circle on the place they live, with the circumference at a place that they might regularly walk to - the ensuing circle will be a rough area of walkability, which will be a reasonable proxy for 'my idea of stroud green'. Add all the circles together, and the overlap gives the core, shared area of 'stroudgreen' and the whole area occupied by circles will represent the fuzzy outer limits. Now why didn't I think of that before. Or has someone already done it? Of course, it doesn't work for me because I live south of the border, down Hackney way...
59. • CommentAuthorerehwon
    • CommentTimeDec 5th 2009

     
    Hmmm A house near here, Evershot, I saw described as "Lower Crouch End" by the estate agent. Anybody seen other examples?
60. • CommentAuthorIan
    • CommentTimeDec 5th 2009

     

    @bluejack. Good idea, and as you are an outsider, a great example of liberal interventionism in border disputes.

61. • CommentAuthorandy
    • CommentTimeDec 5th 2009

     
    We are Ninja
    bluejack - i love it. You can argue all you like about "Stroud Green", but stroudgreen is a state of mind.
    
    Of course, it will all become obvious when Stroud Green is the place where local shopkeepers are all wearing headcams.
62. • CommentAuthorArkady
    • CommentTimeJan 13th 2010

     
    Please can someone reinstate the border on the google map on the front page? I'd love to know how to play around with borders on google maps myself if anyone knows how...
    
    Arky
63. • CommentAuthorSlabber
    • CommentTimeJan 31st 2010 edited

     
    In that map of the wards, everything to the east of Green Lanes is Lib Dem and everything to the West is Labour except Bounds Green, Noel Park and Harringay which are all 2-1 to the Lib Dems, giving Labour 30 councillors and Lib Dems 27. The Lib Dems need to take 2 out of the 3 Labour seats in those three marginal wards to get control of Haringey.